Wars and rumors of wars on the TLM and Summorum Pontificum”?

What's the 'present-day mentality' and surely it's now out-of-date?

The 'reforms' haven't worked out very well, have they?

Perhaps, it emphasises the limits of papal infallibility, as defined by the first Vatican Council, which perhaps do not extend to psychiatric diagnosis?

 

The 'reforms' haven't worked out very well, have they?



No.

 

Well not that we needed it given the immense theological ink spilt over the status of the TLM but summorum pontificum makes quite clear that it was never and could never be abrogated. Some of the greatest minds have spent themselves on this and Benedict sums it up beautifully in SP

 

The concept of immemorial custom is another additional reason why the TLM could jot be considered abrogated

 

William F Buckley and Michael Davies and Malachi Martin have a great debate on this with another priest on the firing line. You can watch it on youtube

 

I believe that Pope St Pius V declared that the TLM could never be abrogated. It goes back that far. I think to the Council of Trent.

 

It Goes without saying the norvus ordo is a radical.deperature with tradition unlike the Missal.of Pius V which in its essence goes back effectively to the earliest days. In 16th century Pius allowed the continuance of a liturgy theat could show it pedigree beyond 200 years to ensure that the errors of protestantism etc did not infect it. There is a superficial parallel between Trent and Vat II when it come to liturgy

 

I think people tend to get ahead of themselves somewhat on this. What is required is humble acceptance that the Divine Liturgy, though not falling from the sky, is the work of the Lord. He has guided its organic growth and development and its immense beauty to be a revelation of the sublime beauty of the truths of the faith. This doesn't happen overnight but its near utter eclipse has shown how vigilant we ought to be. TLM cannot be abrogated. Period.

 

I'm fully aware of what Pope Benedict stated, but that tailspins into a contest between what Benedict says vs. what Pope Francis says. So what I'm doing is examining the permissions that Paul VI, John Paul II, and Benedict allowed relative to the celebrations of the TLM.

Why's that? Because the language of Missale Romanum indicates abrogation, while summorum pontificum states no. There is a danger of creating a perception of backing the Pope we prefer, so my presentation to my son will also include decisions made and actions taken by by Paul VI, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI that will add weight to either side. There is a saying, "Watch what I do and not just what I say."

We are laymen, not popes. So my presentation to Fr. Benjamin isn't simply arguing which document carries more weight, but also what actions were taken by each Pope that may clarify their intent.

I love my son, but hopefully I'll be David in his fight with Goliath. After all, Fr. Ben is 2 inches taller and 40 pounds heavier than I.

Isn't family life grand!

 

Precisley Brian. In charity, it's not matter of what you term "permissions". This is not let me see your argument and I will show you mine. Much much more saintly and scholarly minds have tred this path before you, I or your son or others. The answer is clear. Crystal clear.

 

Lads I'm out of this cause I know too well my weaknesses. My thoughts I hope are clear. I will say nothing else. Apologies

 

I understand your position, Brian, but use of such language would not be a discussion with my son, but an ultimatum. One does not resolve or clarify differences in such a manner. Research and well-written presentations can. My son is not the enemy here. I look upon this as an opportunity to clarify my thoughts and position. Perhaps the forum is not the best place to seek feedback?

 

An informative article that brings some clarity:

https://www.ncregister.com/news/did-pope-paul-vi-abrogate-the-traditional-latin-mass

 

I am sorry to hear this. I am glad that you have gained clarity of mind; may this clarity, which the new puzzle pieces have brought, open a channel for God's peace to flow in. Prayers!

O Mary conceived without sin, place Brian's family members under your Mantle of Maternal Love. May the Peace of Christ gain entrance into each of their hearts!

 

Brian i am so glad the missing puzzle pieces are finally revealed--painful as it must be. Perhaps its like getting a wound cauterized. It hurts like bloody murder but it totally removes the infection and nothing else up to that point could do so. Grace is pouring over you right now I bet and more and more understanding will follow. And then wisdom. Its awfully hard to sort out and survive such a terrible rupture without knowing all the back story. But now you have the missing pieces. May God bless you--and your poor family. Your prayers and sufferings are being answered --as God wills and on His time table.