Sincere doubt about prayer in cemeteries.

Much safer and more Catholic, I think.

 

Yes, thanks. It saddens me when I am reading an obituary and the deceased went to Catholic schools growing up and there is no funeral Mass. It’s not a rare occurrence, sadly.

 

There are other religions that condemn cremation, such as Islam, Zoroastrianism, and the Baha'i Faith. I believe this practice seems like a strategy of playing natural laws against God, making people doubt the Resurrection.

 

I was at a funeral be accident the other week, for I was going to morning mass. But I hit the jack pot because the old lady that died was a member of the choir. The entire choir turned out with several musicians to sing and many of them were Old Latin Classics. For instance at Communion they sung the Salve Regina.

Heaven.

 

In Italy they are not allowed to bury people because the ground is full up. So they can of place them in pedestals. So strange.

St Philip Neri used to go down the Catacombs to pray for hours every day he though they were so holy. They had only been rediscovered in his day (the 1600's) after the Romans had buried then to hide them from the Goths.

The next time I am in Rome I must have a better look at them.

 

The Early Christians from the very beginning of the Church rejected cremation although all the Pagans burnt bodies.

That must mean something. They did this for a reason.

 

So horrifying. Stipulate in the will. No Catholic burial then no inheritance.

 

I read a book by Saint Augustine in mid-2015 that talked about the pious custom of burying people next to the tombs of saints so that the soul of the faithful deceased was under the protection of the saint. Maybe someone on the forum remembers which book Saint Augustine talked about this in.

 

Thats what I do. I ask my Guardian Angel to ask Jesus if its all right for my Angel to go to that soul and ask prayer.

 

. AUGUSTINE ON ‘CARING FOR THE DEAD’


For All Souls, I thought some extracts from St. Augustine’s “Caring for the dead” would be useful, since it touches on burial practice, the prayers of the saints, and prayer for the dead. It’s also significant, given the Vatican’s recent instructions on burial. The full treatise can be found here. Forgive the cumbersomely traditional language; this is lightly adapted from the NPNF translation.

In the books of the Maccabees we read of sacrifice offered for the dead. Even if it were nowhere at all read in the Old Scriptures, not small is the authority, which in this usage is clear, of the whole Church, namely, that in the prayers of the priest which are offered to the Lord God at his altar, the commendation of the dead hath also its place. But then, whether there be some profit accruing unto the soul of the dead from the place of its body, requires a more careful inquiry. And first, whether it make any difference in causing or increasing of misery after this life to the spirits of men if their bodies be not buried, this must be looked into, not in the light of opinion however commonly received, but rather of the holy writ of our religion. (Extract from book 3)

Next, he notes that God may raise the bodies of the dead from any condition, destruction or dispersal. But he says:

It follows not [from the power of God in the resurrection] that the bodies of the departed are to be despised and flung aside, and above all of just and faithful men, which bodies as organs and vessels to all good works their spirit has used in a holy manner. For if a father’s garment and ring, and whatever else like it, is very dear to those whom they leave behind, the greater their affection is towards their parents, in no wise are the bodies themselves to be spurned, which truly we wear in more familiar and close conjunction than any of our putting on. For these pertain not to ornament or aid which is applied from without, but to the very nature of man.

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Whence also the funerals of the just men of old were with dutiful piety cared for, and their obsequies celebrated, and sepulchre provided (Gen. 23; 25:9-10; 47:30), and themselves while living did touching burial or even translation of their bodies give charge to their sons. Tobias also obtained favor with God by burying the dead, as the witness of an angel commends (Tobit 2:7; 12:2). The Lord himself also, about to rise on the third day, both preaches, and commends to be preached, the good work of a religious woman, that she poured out a precious ointment over his limbs, and did it for his burial (Matt. 27:7-13). And they are with praise commemorated in the Gospel, who having received his body from the cross did carefully and with reverend honor see it wound and laid in the sepulchre (John 19:38-39) These authorities however do not put us upon thinking that there is in dead bodies any feeling; but rather, that the providence of God (who is moreover pleased with such offices of piety) charges itself with the bodies also of the dead, this they betoken, to the intent our faith of resurrection might be stayed up thereby. (Extract from Chapter 5)

He goes on to note that, in extraordinary circumstances, proper burial may not be possible, due to lack of money or the occurrence of evil events like war. He then notes a reason for burial near the bodies of saints or with a memorial, tying it to the efficacy of prayer and the intercession of the saints. He also argues that we should pray for the dead, even if they are not buried near the saints or with a memorial.

If this be true, doubtless also the providing for the interment of bodies a place at the memorials of saints, is a mark of a good human affection towards the remains of one’s friends: since if there be religion in the burying, there cannot but be religion in taking thought where the burying shall be. But while it is desirable there should be such like solaces of survivors, for the showing forth of their pious mind towards their beloved, I do not see what helps they be to the dead, save in this way: that upon recollection of the place in which are deposited the bodies of those whom they love, they should by prayer commend them to those same Saints, who have as patrons taken them into their charge to aid them before the Lord. Which indeed they would be still able to do, even though they were not able to inter them in such places.

The only reason the name memorials or monuments is given to those sepulchres of the dead which become specially distinguished, is that they recall to memory … them who by death are withdrawn from the eyes of the living, that they may not by forgetfulness be also withdrawn from men’s hearts. … When therefore the mind recollects where the body of a very dear friend lies buried, and thereupon there occurs to the thoughts a place rendered venerable by the name of a martyr, to that same martyr does it commend the soul in affection of heartfelt recollection and prayer. And when this affection is exhibited to the departed by faithful men who were most dear to them, there is no doubt that it profits them who while living in the body merited that such things should profit them after this life.

But even if some necessity should through absence of all facility not allow bodies to be interred, or in such places interred, yet should there be no pretermitting of supplications for the spirits of the dead: which supplications, that they should be made for all in Christian and catholic fellowship departed, even without mentioning of their names, under a general commemoration, the Church hath charged herself withal; to the intent that they which lack, for these offices, parents or sons or whatever kindred or friends, may have the same afforded unto them by the one pious mother which is common to all. But if there were lack of these supplications, which are made with right faith and piety for the dead, I account that it should not a whit profit their spirits, howsoever in holy places the lifeless bodies should be deposited. (Extract from Chapter 6)

Augustine admits that he is not sure how the saints are able to aid the living or the dead by their prayers.

Howbeit it is a question which surpasses the strength of my understanding, after what manner the martyrs aid them who by them, it is certain, are helped; whether themselves by themselves be present at the same time in so different places, and by so great distance lying apart one from another, either where their memorials are, or beside their memorials, wheresoever they are felt to be present.

Or whether, while they themselves, in a place congruous with their merits, are removed from all converse with mortals, and yet do in a general sort pray for the needs of their suppliants (like as we pray for the dead, to whom we are not present, nor know where they be or what they be doing).

Yet, God Almighty, who is everywhere present, neither bounded in with us nor remote from us, hearing and granting the martyrs’ prayers, by angelic ministries everywhere diffused does afford to men those solaces, to whom in the misery of this life he seeth meet to afford the same, and, touching his martyrs, acts where he will, when he wills, how he wills, and chiefest through their memorials, because this he knows to be expedient for us, building up the faith of Christ for whose confession they suffered, and by marvellous and ineffable power and goodness causing their merits to be had in honor.

This matter is too high that I should have power to attain unto it, too abstruse that I should be able to search it out; and therefore which of these two be the case, or whether perchance both one and the other be the case, … I dare not define. (Extract from Chapter 20)

He finally commends burial near the saints, where possible, as well as prayer for all the dead.

Let us not think that to the dead for whom we have a care, anything reaches save what we solemnly ask for by sacrifices either of the altar, or of prayers, or of alms: although not to all for whom they are done be they profitable, but to them only by whom while they live it is obtained that they should be profitable. But forasmuch as we discern not who these be, it is meet to do them for all regenerate persons, that none of them may be passed by to whom these benefits may and ought to reach.

For better it is that these things shall be superfluously done to them whom they neither hinder nor help, than lacking to them whom they help. More diligently however doth each man these things for his own near and dear friends, in order that they may be likewise done unto him by his. But as for the burying of the body, whatever is bestowed on that, is no aid of salvation, but an office of humanity, according to that affection by which “no man ever hateth his own flesh.”

Whence it is fitting that he take what care he is able for the flesh of his neighbor, when he is gone that bare it. And if they do these things who believe not the resurrection of the flesh, how much more are they beholden to do the same who do believe; that so, an office of this kind bestowed upon a body, dead but yet to rise again and to remain to eternity, may also be in some sort a testimony of the same faith? But, that a person is buried at the memorials of the martyrs, this, I think, so far profits the departed, that while commending him also to the martyrs’ patronage, the affection of supplication on his behalf is increased. (Chapter 22)

 

I found the name of the book by Saint Augustine that I referred to earlier.
https://covenant.livingchurch.org/2016/11/02/st-augustine-on-caring-for-the-dead/

 

I put off making a will and arranging burial for years and finally did both when my wife told me that our local cemetery was running out of plots. Unfortunately, the parish cemetery is out of plots. I would have liked to be buried in a Catholic cemetery near a church because the chances of being prayed for are obviously a lot greater. I always pray for the holy souls in our cemetery when I go into the church for Mass (it's just occurred to me that I should also pray for them on the way out, having just received Jesus). Anyway, I have arranged in my will for the 'Gregorian' Masses to be celebrated for myself and my wife (a non-Catholic). This entails 30 Masses to be said on 30 consecutive days which is, it is said, satisfy even my sins. This is difficult to arrange locally but an organisation called 'Aid to the Church in Need' (UK based) will arrange for the Masses to be said by a missionary priest in need of income. I must specify some hymns because if they sing 'Lord of the Dance', I shall rise up and walk out of the Church (it's one of our priest's favourites!). 'Soul of my Saviour' was sung at my mother's funeral by a wonderful soprano hired for the funeral and it was beautiful.

 

Totally love this.

 

Actually cremation is not so cheap anymore. My relative paid over $5000 for her husband with absolutely no funeral. They said it was because he was a large man. The USA does not require embalming or body prep, and a typical Catholic mausoleum space is $2500 which includes a built in vault and name plaques. With the simple cost of transportation to Mass and the cemetery, a few nights storage at the funeral home, and a cheap box, you can be buried with a Mass for
around $3000.00. Something to plan for and think about. The early Christians were martyred trying to find places to bury their dead and hiding them in tunnels underground. The truly poor used to get a burial by the community in a potter's field, but now they just get burned up and tossed....

 

I guess its a little like the virus.

Something to get suspicious about.

Love New Orleans.

PAY ATTENTION, I'M DEAD

\When they start to treat us like something that doesn't matter.

Burn them and turn them to ashes,

 

I admit I did not read every post on this thread but I seem to remember that it was a holy and honorable thing to pray for the dead exactly due to the reason that they may be in purgatory. I also remember being taught that the dead in purgatory cannot pray for themselves but can pray for those living. So to me if I pray for the dead and for their release from purgatory they in turn may pray for my intentions. There used to be a short jingle that went “pray for the dead and the dead will pray for you”

so while it may not be correct to pray TO the dead (those that are not recognized Saints. It is good from what I learned to pray for the dead.

 

Yes I remember the jingle.

 

I ask the saints and my guardian angel to go to the souls of my friends if they are in purgatory or heaven and ask them to pray for me.

 

I read something in the book, 'Read me or Rue it'. It said that the Holy Souls are saints , just waiting in the hallway of heaven to get let in. That while we might be ungrateful and forget to pray for people they never ever forget. So if we pray for them they will always pay back ten times over.

It also mentioned that during the Middle Ages Merchants often had a habit of giving 10 percent of their profits for Masses to be said for the Holy Souls as a wopnderful investment as their buisnesses greatly prospered by so doing.

 

Padre Pio used to say that far more souls from purgatory visited him that ordinary visitors.