http://www.patheos.com/blogs/mysticpost/2016/01/05/top-cardinal-says-yes-to-medjugorje/ http://www.nationalmedjugorjemoveme...-to-support-medjugojre-visionary-in-vienna-2/ http://www.mir.ie/cardinal-schonborn-interview.html http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/com...-on-earth-has-happened-to-cardinal-schonborn/ https://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=12407
Well he's taken a lot of "incoming" for regularly having the Medj. visionaries, apparitions and all, for prayer services at his Cathedral in Vienna as well as riling the local Medj. Bishop for visiting on his own a few times and attending a big celebration, mixing with Sr. Elvira, foundress of Cenolcolo center for the addicted (also one punished by the local Bishop), and doing so without first kissing the feet of that Bishop! Suppose his "diplomatic" leanings then tend to be visibly a bit skewed!
Except that today is that entrenched "collegiality" stuff where even the Pope dares not proclaim his opinion on such matters until he waits and waits and waits for the channels of authority to be first recognized up the ladder....and that includes esp. the CDF....that has been the case with Medj while the special commission finished its work ages ago. That kind of "mutuality" has created a lot of little popes who would like to have the last word. And those are the ones you come up against if you try to break into that structure. And beyond that first you only can see the gate keepers of any congregation within the bigger organization. The Prefect of the CDF in this case needs to be rattled a bit up there on the mountain of grand proclamations.
If anyone can understand what goes on in the Vatican I take my hat of to them. I doubt even people who have lived and worked there all their lives know, certainly I doubt if even the Pope knows, in fact I suspect he would be the last person in the world to ever know. Too many clever, ammoral , ambitious single men with time on their hands. Like the court of some Roman Emperor. The word they use to describe their way of dealing with things is, 'Romanita': "Romanita rests upon one basic principle: Cunctando regitur mundus. If you can outwait all, you can rule all. The hallmark of romanita is understatement in action and in all forms of expression. It is, in a way, a power in whispers. Esstential to it are a sense of timing reamed with patience, a ruthlessness that excludes the hesitation of emotions, and an almost messianic conviction of ultimate success. Few are born with it. Most genuine 'Romans' who flourish must learn it over time."* http://www.cfnews.org/page10/page64/romanita.html
The video answers my question, Padraig, thank you. I didn't read all the rest of the replies on the thread because I have been out and I'm tired, so I apologise if the following questions have already been asked and answered: Isn't it more or less a given that the Vatican doesn't give a definitive ruling on apparitions until after the apparitions have ceased? If that's the case, why is the CDF at fault for not approving of Medjugorje when the seers are claiming to still have regular apparitions at pre-arranged events around the world?
This almost aggressive attitude by devotees of Medjugorje in response to any questions about it is very offputting. Pope Francis and Cardinal Schonborn are the main proponents of collegiality. Cardinal Schonborn is no stranger to doing his own thing, asserting his authority in his own diocese and, by promoting Medjugorje against the wishes of the local Bishop, subverting the legitimate authority outside his diocese. What is it with people who push Medjugorje that they regard everyone who isn't in lockstep with them as the enemy? Catholic teaching is that we are free to make up our own minds about private visions or revelations whether approved or not, yet it is even insinuated on this forum that anyone who disregards this private vision has closed their heart to the Holy Spirit. Claims like that are not in line with Church teaching and I would hazard a guess that they border on heresy. Are people who believe in Medjugorje demanding that the Church change its practice of not ruling on apparition claims until after the apparitions have ceased? Is Our Lady making this demand?
Dolours: (referencing my comment about the Philippine Bishop perhaps wishing to contact Pope Francis about this latest negative decision by C. Muller) This almost aggressive attitude by devotees of Medjugorje in response to any questions about it is very off-putting. ....What is it with people who push Medjugorje that they regard everyone who isn't in lockstep with them as the enemy? Um, except that I was addressing (responding) the topic of this thread....Apparitions at Lipa. Wow! What a jump you had to take in order to set up a type of straw man that projects an obvious dislike of "devotees of Medjugorje" or something.
Well, no, it wasn't a jump. Padraig said that Cardinal Schonborn supported Medjugorje, and I asked how did he know that, to which you responded that Cardinal Schonborn had taken flak for supporting Medjugorje. I didn't raise Medjugorje. I asked a question about it which both you and Padraig answered. Padraig backed up his statement with a video. You referenced Medjugorje in each of your responses to my questions, in the second of which you were responding to my suggestion that the Archbishop from the Philippines could contact Cardinals Schonborn or Kasper and went on to blame "collegiality stuff". I can't make head or tail of the allegations you are making against the CDF.
Then I think perhaps you might go back and take a look at the comment of mine that you were replying to. Oh well, I'll save you the effort: Except that today is that entrenched "collegiality" stuff where even the Pope dares not proclaim his opinion on such matters until he waits and waits and waits for the channels of authority to be first recognized up the ladder....and that includes esp. the CDF....that has been the case with Medj while the special commission finished its work ages ago. That kind of "mutuality" has created a lot of little popes who would like to have the last word. And those are the ones you come up against if you try to break into that structure. And beyond that first you only can see the gate keepers of any congregation within the bigger organization. The Prefect of the CDF in this case needs to be rattled a bit up there on the mountain of grand proclamations. And, again, my comment was to explain how what the Bishop mentioned about the difficulty of getting to Pope Francis, "but I don't know if I can reach him, especially if some people around him know I am approaching him. I don't know if I'm capable of getting to him." could just be true and your apparent belief that there shouldn't be such difficulty getting through those you assume the Pope is in regular contact: If I wanted to speak to the Pope, Cardinal Muller is the last person I would contact. If I'm aware that Cardinals Schonborn, Kasper or the South American Cardinal whose name escapes me but who is reputed to have ghost written much of Amoris Laetitia are favourites of the Pope, then the Archbishop cannot be unaware of it. So it is I who can't seem to "make head or tail of the allegations you are making against" Medjugorje in response to that comment of mine...directed as I said towards the topic of this thread, Lipa...not Medj.
I'm making no allegations against Medjugorje. You and Padraig introduced Medjugorje to the thread. I didn't. I merely pointed out - after Medjugorje was raised - that whenever Medjugorje is questioned somebody who supports it goes on the attack. That has been my experience. Now, leaving Medjugorje aside, can anybody here please tell me what's the point of having a CDF if anyone with some piece of information can declare them to be exceeding their authority or even silencing the pope when the people with most if not all of the relevant information are the CDF? Even if the Bishops who reportedly recanted on their deathbeds were threatened with excommunication, it wasn't the current members of the CDF who made the threats. I'm simply flabbergasted at the implications of some of these allegations and I would expect anyone making them to have real hard back-up evidence. A Bishop claiming that someone won't let him talk to the Pope is not evidence. If the Pope is not answering his calls, perhaps the Pope doesn't want to talk to him. The Pope wouldn't be the first boss in the world to have his staff tell someone he doesn't want to talk to that he isn't available.
I don't think anyone expects a final ruling on medj since they are still ongoing. But we do hope the findings of the commission are announced and based on that we get more guidance on medj from the vatican. So, no, no one is demanding the Vatican approval process is changed and certainly our Lady is not demanding it. I am not sure why you would even think that. Most people who have been converted via our mother appearing at medj are just quietly living out the messages and and focused on our conversion using the 5 stones of medj as our foundation. Does that make me a medj devotee...I don't know since I really don't know what you mean by that. It does not sound very positive. I just consider myself catholic who was woken up from my sinful life by our Lady of medj and am trying to convert via the 5 stones I learned about at medj.
Thanks, PotatoSack, for your straightforward and polite answer to my question. There could be any number of reasons why the Vatican won't release its findings, one of which could be a very real possibility that a positive report means that the Vatican believes the apparitions are authentic thus essentially approving an ongoing apparition. Another reason could be that they can't reach consensus on it. But that's just speculation on my part. The major difference I see between Medjugorje and Lippa is that the former is ongoing while the latter happened years ago and the majority if not all witnesses are dead. I really don't see the point of linking the two if the only reason is to cast aspersions on the CDF. Devotee just means someone with a devotion (at least that's what it means to me). I know that very many devotees are quietly hopeful that it will be approved or at least not condemned. A few people of my acquaintance are in that category. Others tend to adopt an accusative tone when its authenticity is questioned. I suppose that's human nature, and in future I will steer clear of asking any questions about it.
Yes, I accept this argument. Giving approval to an ongoing apparition Site might be rather iike handing over a blank cheque to the visionaries giving presumed approval to futre messages as wel las past. However on the other hand (and their always seems to be an other hand in these things) it could well be argued that these are very very specail times and these series of appartions are themselves very,ver specail , indeed the most extraordinary series of appartions in the history of mankind and require out of the box thinking. Out of the box thinking is not something beauorcrats do very well however and thats who would be handling this. I think that is why Our Lady likes to appeoar to children and the very simple ordinary folks. Vatican officials are neither. I don't think they know quite what to do with mystical goings on.
There is a headline in Spirit Daily today about the Arch Bishop in the Philippines being interviewed on the subject of the Lipa approval and nullification. It is interesting, and scary when you think of it. I wonder if the Arch Bishop in Philippines will be demoted or excommunicated. I hope and pray that he will be able to speak to Pope Francis in person. He wants to ensure the Holy Father knows the Truth behind Lipa, because he is convinced if the Pope knew the truth, Lipa would not be nullified. He is saying it is most likely Pope Pius XII did not knowingly silence Lipa. It appears there has been a constant stream of miracles around this devotion. Please God; Our Lady Mediatrix of all Grace, will be recognised in the Philippines and another hurdle in this 5th Marian Dogma will be overcome, and the promise of Peace can become the hope we need once again for the future of our children. It is interesting in one of Padraigs posts that he should write, 'I have a feeling we have not heard the last of this.'
I simply can't understand why there is so much discussion, angst, argument over Apparitions, Seers, what Revelation really means or the latest "Vatican Speak" News! I can't help but believe that it's all part of the distraction, confusion and dangers that we are supposed to watch for and be aware of ... In the End Times ... or "just" The Storm that is, obviously, upon us!! True, Approved, Not Approved or Pending ... for decades! What difference can it possibly make in YOUR life NOW or in the near future!!?? ..Eh!?? I'm guessing that 99% of all "The Message" from all of the above can be summed up in two short sentences: 1) Get your S*** Together! 2) Jesus I Trust in You!! 1 Thessalonians 5, 16-22 Always rejoice. Pray without ceasing. In all things give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you all. Extinguish not the spirit. Despise not prophecies. But prove all things; hold fast that which is good. From all appearance of evil refrain yourselves. GOD SAVE ALL HERE!!
CrewDog. You are right, we need to prepare for the battle ahead, if not already on our doorstep. However, because the 5th Marian Dogma has so much resting on it's proclamation, and it happens to be part of devotion to Our Lady, Mediatrix of all Grace; I do have an interest in the outcome of the efforts of the Arch Bishop of Philippines. I am waiting to see if the Philippine efforts of God are finally put to rest. Will we then see another apparition where God will give the Church another chance to see His Will brought to bear through the Intercession of Heavenly Mother. I can say, that it seems to me Akita happened because the Fatima message was not published as requested in 1960. To hopefully let you see where I am coming from.
These are indeed very special times - very troubled and troubling times as all these public accusations and arguments among the Church's hierarchy attest to. I'll confine myself to talking about Lippa because I would rather stay away from discussions about Medjugorje. The Archbishop claims that the apparition is genuine, that the Pope agrees with him and if he could only manage to speak to the Pope the apparition would be given Church approval. If you were the Archbishop and truly believed that the Mother of God had visited your diocese and men in the Church were not just ignoring or dismissing her but were preventing you from speaking to the one person on earth with the authority to speak for her Son, what would you do? Would you bemoan your lot and resort to bad mouthing? You wouldn't have to think far outside the box to get a flight to Rome and cause a rucus in the Domus Santa Marta until you got to speak to the Pope. After all, the pope moved out of the Papal Apartment and into the Domus to make himself more accessible. I would have been on the next flight out of Manila. What about you? Throwing his teddy out of the pram and screaming that he'll tell Daddy when Daddy gets home doesn't reflect well on the Archbishop or his cause. All very will blaming bureaucracy and bureaucrats, but don't forget that this bureaucracy and the bureaucrats appointed to it have managed thus far to safeguard the Deposit of Faith so that it has been handed on to us intact. No matter how many people claim to have been cured or converted at any apparition site, if the apparition is a cause of dividing the elect we truly are in end times. Bishop against Bishop is not a fruit of the Holy Spirit.
Yes I agree the Archbishop should accpet the ruling and remain quiet. though I accept he will have been ..what's the word...tempted by grevious circumstance. Still he is an Archbishop and more might have been expected from him. Dififcult times indeed.
He did say he would be obedient. And yet the Church authorities must themselves abide by the structured protocol ordered for examination of any private revelation and thus must be accountable to the faithful for errors made and as well made public so that scandal can either be avoided or ended. In another case where there was also grave error within a sham of a commission when those involved in the objection to the outcome and who numbered among them well known Marian experts, went to the proper authorities with the listing of errors they were told that they had every right to object and ask for correction and whatever else would be necessary. But since that "talk" there hasn't been anything corrected. That's what this local Bishop is up against. Makes one refer to the man healed by Jesus when the parents of the man were terrorized by the authorities of the religion at the time and told them when questioned about what just happened to ask the son himself rather than witness to what they had seen as well and the son responded simply with what happened, the facts without falling to the force that wished him to lie about them in order to comply with the religious authorities who were in error or who wished to promote a lie. That is an example given to us re: the truth, by the Word in scripture.
