We have 2000 years old treasure chest of Catholic tradition, which has carefully and clearly examined numerous apparitions, supernatural and preternatural miracles, and gave us the wealth of information. The renowned dominican moral theologian, Fr. Royo Marin, lists 10 types of physical phenomena that can be falsified by the Devil. With God’s permission, the Devil can do any of the following: 1. Produce visions that are actually seen, or imaginative visions. 2. Falsify ecstasy. 3. Produce rays of light in the body and sensible heat. 4. Cause feelings of consolation and tenderness. 5. Instantaneously cure strange sicknesses that were caused by diabolical influence. Tertullian wryly notes that these were not authentic sicknesses in the first place, and the Devil really doesn’t cure – he just ceases to torment the individual. This is why even miracles worked in the causes of Saints had to be so carefully examined. 6. Produce the stigmata, as well as other kind of bodily extraordinary phenomena or objects such as crowns, rings, etc. 7. Simulate miracles and other phenomena such as levitation and bi-location. 8. Cause persons or objects to disappear from sight (by placing an obstacle in the line of vision or acting directly on the sense of sight). 9. Simulate locutions by means of sound waves or immediate action on the sense of hearing. 10. Produce body incombustibility by interposing some medium between the fire and the body of the individual. For example, there are documented cases of spontaneous human combustion, where a person bursts into flame for no apparent reason. The flames, very hot and localised, usually destroy most of the body but leave objects in close proximity to the person relatively unburned. Persons without faith are confounded by such incidents. The Catholic understands that this action falls within the powers of the Devil. The general rule of the Church with regard to extraordinary phenomenon used to be: Be extremely vigilant in matters of extraordinary phenomena. Since Satan is capable of producing visions, ecstasies, stigmata, and any number of phenomena, the Church used to employ a long, arduous process to determine authenticity. Many Catholics today jump on the bandwagon of any person who has a vision or effects a so-called “healing” – so common at charismatic functions. Others ask God for visions and healing powers for themselves, thinking that this is a sign of holiness and God’s favour. It is not a wise thing to do, and the Church used to caution against this. Before Vatican II, the Church always taught that great vigilance should be shown in these matters. Religion teachers used to counsel us to never, never ask for supernatural gifts: First, because it was for God to choose to whom He gives these gifts; and second, because in our vainglory to display special gifts, we could well be inviting Satan to make some preternatural action. Thus in case of ‘seers’ of Medjugorje, who now go around the globe to publicly show how they receive apparition — which is ridiculous even in secular terms — it is one thing among many of them wrong regarding Medjugorje. It is just the opposite of what things should really be if they indeed were seeing supernatural phenomena.
Thus in case of ‘seers’ of Medjugorje, who now go around the globe to publicly show how they receive apparition — which is ridiculous even in secular terms — it is one thing among many of them wrong regarding Medjugorje. It is just the opposite of what things should really be if they indeed were seeing supernatural phenomena.[/quote] =================================== What do you have against those who, for whatever reason, are unable to take advantage of what the Church currently permits for all others...that is....to visit Medjugorje and take in whatever experiences they may have there....because they cannot travel there themselves and are thus given just a portion of that experience in their own areas? I didn't know the Church...or even basic charity for that matter....was selective in just who may benefit from such permissions. Those who can go would simply see the same...unless you yourself are also saying that being in that place is something more "special" than witnessing the same person/s in their own locale!!
The book if Revelation is an Allegorical style of literature (symbolic). It is not literal. You are interpreting the Bible like a Protestant fundamentalist.
[quote="padraig, post: 75389, member: 2" I am, I guess, what you would call a mystic [/quote] This statement causes me unrest and I can't figure out why??
This statement causes me unrest and I can't figure out why??[/quote] I guess because it comes across as bumptious. Also because we are all called to be mystics, it is our common inheritance. In that we are all called to enter in to the mystery of Christ, being changed from one degree of glory unto the next into the image of Christ. 2 Corinthians 3:16-18 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
I think you are too sensitive, Padraig. If someone else had written "idiotic posts", you would have given a warning immediately - wouldn't you? Let people talk and give their views even if you disagree. Is this forum only for pro-Medj people? Too bad.... no good. Good night.
I guess because it comes across as bumptious. Also because we are all called to be mystics, it is our common inheritance. In that we are all called to enter in to the mystery of Christ, being changed from one degree of glory unto the next into the image of Christ. 2 Corinthians 3:16-18 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.[/quote] I don't get it? Bible says that we are all called to be HOLY, not mystics.
have to ask, How does one become Holy? Holy exalted or worthy of complete devotion as one perfect in goodness and righteousness having a divine quality <holy love> religious and morally good mystic One who professes a knowledge of spiritual truth or a feeling of union with the divine, reached through contemplation a person who tries to gain religious or spiritual knowledge through prayer and deep thought
Holiness happens...you can ask for it but it happens through the Grace of God. I personally think there are levels of holiness but we should all strive to be holy. Sometime I truly wonder if everyday saints are holier then rockstar saints. One will never know. Now anyone who says they are holy, are really not...the lack of humility comes from the "created one". And from my readings of saints (which i should do more) it seems they never really considered themselves holy...they actually constantly fought temptation and thought themselves to be sinners. Now the mystic question...no one can ask to become a mystic. And Padraig...no real mystic would say he/she is a mystic. That title is usually given by others to a person who has been given the gift of touching the spiritual. Now Padraig is correct that during mass and during some spiritual exercises (through the Grace of God) you might touch the mystical. Some spiritual writers have even said every event in life could be mystical. For example living in the Divine Will and focusing each moment to God can be mystical. But for one to say he or she is a mystic...can leave a bad taste in your mouth. May Gods Will be Done
For me the word mystic or mystical is problematic. The reason is, that I can not accept the different definitions of these words. No matter who the scholars are... If I had all the visions and divine experiences of st Faustina or st Teresa of Avila and all the other saints together, still I could not consider myself to be a mystic. Why? I don't like those words at all! They are human inventions, categorizations. The meaning and content of those words depend on what the person who use it means by them. The latin word mysterium is different. It's divine. God gives us different gifts. To someone visions and the other words of wisdom or prophetic messages etc. I think these are natural gifts from God to His creatures. It's so simple! - Not mysticism.
why are you always looking for a fight MF? You MIGHT be on the wrong forum, indeed....and Little Me as well
as far as the Anti Medjugorje Lynch Mob goes....you sound like Charlie Brown's teacher to me and I tune you off.... wah wah wah wah wah wah....
As far as I recall St Pope John Paul the second's Doctoral Thesis was on Mystical Theology, centering on the works of St John of the Cross, a Doctor of the Church, himself a disciple of another Doctor of the Church whose works are also deeply mystical. To maintain certain words are,' human inventions', seems to me a very, very strange thing to wrote. For all words are human inventions. Frankly I am concerned by this post as it appears to me to be bizarre, rambling and totally illogical..
I have noted whenever there is contention and controversy, you and Little Me are right in the middle of it....just an observation. I was taught that Restless, Irritable and Discontent is of the devil, and Happy, Joyous and Free are of God.....something to think about.
You are right "all words are human inventions". I was going to write the same thing but dropped it off. Sorry, but I can not express myself properly because English is not my mother language. I wanted to point only that for me (personally) the word mystic is problematic. Hope it doesn't offend you? Of course you can study mystical theology at universities. I have studied it (a little bit) too. I understand in a certain level what those scholars are trying to say, but I disagree. For me mysticism is nothing (wau!) big super, hyper things... which is bestowed ONLY for some special people. As I wrote, I consider visions and other graces from God to be NORMAL things for His people. Hope you got the point. - I guess we are talking different language anyway ... my illogical and your's logical... sorry, I can't help it.
So you must stick to what you have been taught. I have not written here much lately... Thank you for your kindly and nice comments. Have a nice sleep.
my apologies.....I did not know English was not your primary language.....Perhaps I was misinterpreting that response to be terse when in fact you were writing in a language you are not primary in.....Please forgive me.
