Exactly. Stars would actually “fall” (from our earthly viewpoint) if the earth’s axis shifted, as has been predicted in multiple prophecies.
Byron, You are correct that the Warning will be a significant event, huge actually. I do understand why you believe that we are in the great apostasy right now. I mean who would ever think that some of the things being considered by various churchmen would be considered as we see being done today. It’s scary.
Not just various churchmen, our own Pope is as guilty. It’s astounding to me how many are too blind to realize how serious our present time is. Or is it just too much for some to contemplate?
I think its the old "normalcy bias" kicking in. People look about horrified at first but then they get acclimated. And then they start to rationalize. But if we take a step back and really look--then we see wholesale apostasy. Ralph Martin talks about this. Maybe it isnt the big end of the world apostasy but its a good dress rehearsal.
Hi Carol55. I'm sorry that you cannot connect the dots. Still, it is a fact that the "great tribulation" of the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24) is the same as the period of the "Antichrist" (CCC 675). Again, the footnote 573 in the CCC proves my point. The "Period of Peace" (Fatima) is described as the "rest" (Isaiah 32:17-18) and the "thousand years" (Apocalypse 20:4) and the gathering of "His elect" (Matthew 24:31) and the early harvest of "they that are of Christ, who have believed in his coming" (1 Corinthians 15:23). And I am very familiar with CCC 676. It defines and discusses the Antichrist's error of promoting "millenarianism." The definition given in CCC 676 of this error is "the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgement." If you would like to understand this concept more thoroughly, I would suggest you read The Pursuit of the Millennium by Norman Cohn. Essentially, "the Period of Peace" is a supernaturally-initiated miracle, not a human-initiated, temporal phenomenon. The "false peace" of the Antichrist will be a human-initiated solution. It will not last. The true "Period of Peace" supernaturally-initiated will last.
PNF, When do you see the period of peace promised by Our Lady of Fatima occurring? I’m not trying to trip you up either, my friend but I suppose that I don’t understand what you think will happen after the time of the Antichrist. Can you please explain your thoughts on this and how they fit with what the catechism states about it? I’m hoping to understand your thoughts better. I think I understand what you are saying but I’m really not certain. I think that you are confusing a period of peace with the peace for all of eternity that comes at the end of the world. No scholars on Fatima have stated this to my knowledge unless I am misunderstanding you. Please don’t be sorry my dots are connected just not the same way that yours are.
I personally now believe the Warning will take place in January, 2024, or perhaps shortly before, and the Miracle in April, 2024. I want to stress that if wrong I won't be bent out of shape because my daily life as a Catholic is what God wishes me to live. But if it is, we will all be very busy informing others about the Faith and directing individuals to the sacraments. I would think that priests will be so busy in the Confessionals that the baptism of converts will be delegated to Deacons! May my arm grow weary pouring water!
This videos may help. If you don’t have time to watch the whole thing go to @37minute mark and listen just for a few minutes. Father Colm makes the distinction between the great tribulation and the final tribulation.
Hi Carol55. The timing is discussed in Matthew 24:22: 22 And unless those days [the 1260 days of the great tribulation] had been shortened, no flesh should be saved: but for the sake of the elect those days shall be shortened. So, for the "sake of the elect" a "shortening" of this period of the great tribulation will occur. Those who are not "the elect" will not experience the specific "salvation" (deliverance) referred to here. These "elect," and only these "elect," will be spared the final period of Wrath. This miraculous event that delivers "the elect" from the clutches of the Antichrist is mentioned by St. Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17: 15 For this we say unto you in the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them who have slept. 16 For the Lord himself shall come down from heaven with commandment, and with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead who are in Christ, shall rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air, and so shall we be always with the Lord. Note that St. Paul mentions "in the clouds" and "into the air" in those verses. He is speaking to the Thessalonians, who were desperately hoping for the Lord's coming. Then we move to Apocalypse 11, where we see a similar description of "the witnesses" (Greek = martyrs) going "up to heaven in a cloud": 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast, that ascendeth out of the abyss, shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their bodies shall lie in the streets of the great city, which is called spiritually, Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord also was crucified. 9 And they of the tribes, and peoples, and tongues, and nations, shall see their bodies for three days and a half: and they shall not suffer their bodies to be laid in sepulchres. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry: and shall send gifts one to another, because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt upon the earth. 11 And after three days and a half, the spirit of life from God entered into them. And they stood upon their feet, and great fear fell upon them that saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven, saying to them: Come up hither. And they went up to heaven in a cloud: and their enemies saw them. So when does this happen? Apocalypse 11:14-15 says that it happens between the Sixth Trumpet and the Seventh Trumpet and between the Second Woe and the Third Woe. 14 The second woe is past: and behold the third woe will come quickly. 15 And the seventh angel sounded the trumpet: and there were great voices in heaven, saying: The kingdom of this world is become our Lord's and his Christ's, and he shall reign for ever and ever. Amen. Therefore, after the journey of the elect "up to heaven in a cloud," we see that there is a final period related to the Third Woe and announced by the Seventh Trumpet. Here, in Wisdom 5, is the events described in more detail as seen from the perspective of the "enemies" of those who "went up to heaven in a cloud": 1 Then shall the just stand with great constancy against those that have afflicted them, and taken away their labours. 2 These seeing it, shall be troubled with terrible fear, and shall be amazed at the suddenness of their unexpected salvation, 3 Saying within themselves, repenting, and groaning for anguish of spirit: These are they, whom we had sometime in derision, and for a parable of reproach. 4 We fools esteemed their life madness, and their end without honour. 5 Behold, how they are numbered among the children of God, and their lot is among the saints. 6 Therefore we have erred from the way of truth, and the light of justice hath not shined unto us, and the sun of understanding hath not risen upon us. 7 We wearied ourselves in the way of iniquity and destruction, and have walked through hard ways, but the way of the Lord we have not known. ... 14 Such things as these the sinners said in hell: 15 For the hope of the wicked is as dust, which is blown away with the wind, and as a thin froth which is dispersed by the storm: and a smoke that is scattered abroad by the wind: and as the remembrance of a guest of one day that passeth by. 16 But the just shall live for evermore: and their reward is with the Lord, and the care of them with the most High. 17 Therefore shall they receive a kingdom of glory, and a crown of beauty at the hand of the Lord: for with his right hand he will cover them, and with his holy arm he will defend them. 18 And his zeal will take armour, and he will arm the creature for the revenge of his enemies. 19 He will put on justice as a breastplate, and will take true judgment instead of a helmet: 20 He will take equity for an invincible shield: 21 And he will sharpen his severe wrath for a spear, and the whole world shall fight with him against the unwise. 22 Then shafts of lightning shall go directly from the clouds, as from a bow well bent, they shall be shot out, and shall fly to the mark. 23 And thick hail shall be cast upon them from the stone casting wrath: the water of the sea shall rage against them, and the rivers shall run together in a terrible manner. 24 A mighty wind shall stand up against them, and as a whirlwind shall divide them: and their iniquity shall bring all the earth to a desert, and wickedness shall overthrow the thrones of the mighty. So "the wicked" (the "enemies" of those who "went up to Heaven in a cloud") will be "amazed at the suddenness of [the] unexpected salvation" of "the elect." Then "the wicked" will lament their past actions because they realize what is about to happen to them. While the elect "is among the saints," the "wicked" will be "in hell" (not the eternal hell, but a kind of earthly purgatory). We know this "hell" will be an earthly purgatory because during this period "the whole world shall fight with [the Lord] against the unwise." That is the final battle, in which those who persecuted "the just" and repented must prove themselves worthy of heaven by fighting the incorrigibly wicked. This final period is the actual Chastisement or Wrath (from which "the elect" are exempt according to 1 Thessalonians 5:9). The Final Judgement and true "end of the world" occurs after this last period of Wrath/Chastisement.
Thanks PNF for answering. I believe that I am correct and you are alone in this thinking about when the period of peace promised by Our Lady of Fatima will occur. Well, there was another member at one time who shared this view also. You, of course, are free to think what you want to about this. edited to add: I just remembered that the basis for the other member’s belief in the above was also due to the statement that Our Lady Fatima made, “ In the end My Immaculate Hesrt will triumph.” Iow, she took “ in the end” to mean the end of the world. My head is still spinning, unfortunately.
Hi Carol55. I showed you evidence from the Bible that the authentic Period of Peace will be a supernatural event (not human-initiated), will be reserved to "the elect" (not all Christians), and will occur, in the sequence of end time events, between the Sixth and Seventh Trumpets and at the end of the Second Woe. You respond that I am "alone in this thinking." What part of "my thinking" are you referring to?
Hi Carol55. I completely agree that there is a distinction between the "tribulation" period BEFORE the "Period of Peace" and the "Chastisement" period AFTER the "Period of Peace." Here is the order of events OVERALL (in God's eyes): Tribulation --> Great Tribulation --> Warning/Miracle --> Wrath/Chastisement From the perspective of the ELECT: Tribulation (false prophets) --> Great Tribulation/Antichrist (shortened) --> Warning/Miracle --> Period of Peace From the perspective of the PERSECUTORS of the ELECT (including Catholics who side with the Antichrist): Period of wars, famines, earthquakes, etc. --> New Age of Peace and Human Fraternity --> Warning/Miracle --> Wrath/Chastisement The events will NOT be PERCEIVED in the same way by all people in the world. This is what you are missing. Those who love the "things of heaven" are "the elect." They cannot wait for Jesus to come. They suffer living in this world, a world controlled by Satan. They hate the lies of the False Prophet first and foremost. They are not obsessed with geopolitics and the future arrangement of the "world order," because, in this world, "the new boss, is the same as the old boss," that is, Satan. Those who love the "things of the earth" are the "false brethren" and the "reprobate," two distinct groups, but on the same side before the Warning. The former are apparent members of "the Church." But they are fakes. They create their own personal Jesus to fit their lifestyle. They like their liturgy in the vernacular and with full participation so they can be noticed by others. They don't like too many rules (for themselves at least). And they tell everyone that God wants us to all be "at peace" and have "no division," regardless whether His teachings are followed. Getting along with everyone is the highest virtue in the eyes of these people. The latter, the reprobate, don't pretend to love God. They just hate any rules and any God who would restrict their freedom. These two groups who love the "things of the earth" (and primarily themselves) agree on one thing for sure. They both hate the people who love the "things of heaven." Some are more vocal about this than others. But it comes down to the fact that the lovers of "the things of heaven" hate sin. The lovers of the "things of the earth" hate to be told they are committing sins. The Great Tribulation will be the period when the lovers of "the things of the earth" will PERSECUTE the lovers of "the things of heaven" over this issue. It will be the "wokists" (in varying degrees) against the "elect." The Tribulation is "Great" ONLY from the perspective of the lovers of the "things of heaven." Why? Because what will be "taken away" by the Antichrist are the "heavenly things," the true Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the traditional Sacraments. These things will be replaced with watered-down copies that are meaningless to the lovers of the "things of heaven." But the lovers of the "things of the earth" think the watered-down liturgy and sacraments are just fine. Why? Because they don't really care that much if at all about all that heaven stuff anyway. To them, religion is just for show (as a revealer of their piety) if anything at all. So these two main categories of people (Heaven lovers and earth lovers), will be the opponents prior to the Warning. The lovers of the earth PERSECUTE the lovers of heaven. Then the Warning happens. The "lovers of Heaven" receive their reward at this point. That reward is the "Period of Peace." But after the Warning, there is a split in the group that I called the lovers of "things of the earth." Some of those people will repent and accept their penance. Some of them will continue to love the "things of the earth" and scoff at God. This is the Final Chastisement period. It will be a "purgatory on earth" for those repentant souls who persevere to the end. It will be the beginning of Hell for those souls that either do not repent at the Warning or repent but do not persevere to the end. Pro tip: the bad guy is Bergoglio. He is a liar. He will be revealed as the Antichrist and claim to usher in a false man-made peace. He will outlaw the true Holy Sacrifice of the Mass (the Tridentine Mass). He will outlaw the traditional Sacraments. He will preach a new morality of "wokism." Watch what he recommends and do the opposite. Join with the tiny traditional remnant who accepts only the true Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the true Sacraments. That is the essence of what you are being tested on during the Great Tribulation. If you fail the test, you will get "purgatory on earth," at best, if you can persevere. If you pass the test, you will be rewarded with the true, supernatural "Period of Peace."
That is not the distinction that Father Colm makes in the video PNF. I’m taking a break from this discussion.
Yes Agreed from what I've read the false prophet supports the anti christ and I have my eye on 2 of them in the news
Good video. There is definitely a distinction between great tribulation and the final tribulation. Matthew 24:21 Douay states, "for there shall be then great tribulation." Nowhere is Jesus calling it THE great tribulation. That was inserted.
Hi HeavenlyHosts. We agree. The "great tribulation" discussed in Matthew 24 is different from the Final Chastisement/Wrath period (what you are calling the "final tribulation"). EDIT: my original attempt to show the sequence of events became garbled after I hit save, so I removed it. My above post has the same sequence but formatted differently.
Hi Carol55. I found a good reference that should prove that the Catholic Church has always taught that "the great tribulation" discussed in Matthew 24 is same as the "period of the Antichrist." Please see the following link to the text of the original Douay-Rheims Bible. The original publication came with extensive notes (many of which were not reproduced in later revisions of the D-R because of concerns about the size of the Bible with all the notes). However, those original notes are reproduced on the following website: https://originaldouayrheims.com/mat24 If you hover over the botonee cross on Matthew 24:22, you will see the following words: Shal be shortned. Antichrist. The raigne of Antichrist shal be short, that is, three yeares and a half. And if you hover over the botonee cross on Matthew 24:29 you will see the following words: Immediatly. Antichrist. If the later day shal immediatly folow the persecution of Antichrist, which is to endure but three yeares and a halfe, as is aforesaid: then is it mere blasphemie to say, Gods Vicar is Antichrist, and that (by their owne limitation) these thousand yeares almost. So, as you can see the original translating team of the Douay-Rheims Bible (the official English language Bible for almost 400 years), taught that the 3.5 year period of the Antichrist is the same as the period of "the great tribulation." It is not my opinion. It is the perennial teaching of the Catholic Church. Even more interesting than that, is what the original D-R notes say about "the Abomination of Desolation": Abomination of desolation. The abomination of desolation. The abolishing of the holy Sacrifice of the Masse by Antichrist, and his ministers. This abomination of desolation foretold, was first partly fulfilled in diuerse prophanations of the Temple of Hierusalem, when the Sacrifice and seruice of God was taken away, but specially it shal be fulfilled by Antichrist, and his Precursours, when they shal abolish the holy Masse, which is the Sacrifice of Christes body and bloud, and the only soueraigne worship due to God in his Church: as S. Hypolitus writeth in these words: The Churches shal lament with great lamentation, because there shal neither Oblation be made, nor incense, nor worship grateful to God. But the sacred houses of Churches shal be like to cottages, and the pretious body and bloud of Christ shal not be extant (openly in Churches) in those dayes, the Liturgie (or Masse) shal be extinguished, the Psalmodie shal cease, the reciting of the Scriptures shal not be heard. Hippol. de Antichristo. By which it is plaine, that the Heretikes of these dayes be the special fore-runners of Antichrist. So, citing St. Hippolytus, the translators of the D-R Bible identify the "abomination of desolation" with the "abolishing of the holy Sacrifice of the Mass by the Antichrist." By the way, this is the same St. Hippolytus who has been cited (controversially) as the source of Eucharistic Prayer II in the Novus Ordo. Currently, we are experiencing the attempted abolition of the Mass of the Ages, the TLM. Once that happens, in most Catholic churches, the most common "eucharistic prayer" that will be said will be Eucharistic Prayer II. Coincidence? I think not. The abolition of the Traditional Latin Mass is the unmistakable sign of the rise of the Antichrist, according to Catholic Tradition. And that event coincides with the great tribulation/Antichrist. So connect the dots regarding who "the Antichrist" is most likely to be and how close we are to "the abomination of desolation."
