Hi Basto Your own name has many interesting translations both in Spanish and Portuguese but I would never use it to insult you. Why have you chosen to use this beautiful title of Our Lady in such an insulting and offensive way? The statue is not to my taste but the music is Handel's Messiah if I am not mistaken, a wonderful praise of God. I would not be offended or insulted by this gift. I think the Pope may have had his own thoughts but like him I was brought up to say thank you for any gift whether I liked it or not and never to comment negatively. You did not yet respond to my question about your claims of Satanism? Nothing will ever replace the Feast of the Immaculate Conception. This is just another way to see the role of Our Lady as one whose conception freed up the Way back to God. Untying the bonds that tie us up in ourselves, in our own willful ways rather than the ways and will of God has always been one of Her graces. She Ransoms our Souls and of course is Our Lady of Ransom. Can you see the common theme: freeing us from death and lies and restoring us to God. This is Our Lady Untier of Kn0ts. She is always shown crushing the serpent under her foot. She also helps us find a way out of scraps and tight corners. Very helpful on this forum. Her image is not sacrilegious, it is sacramental. Not so long ago I mildly insulted the way Our Lady was portrayed in another ancient devotion just because I did not like the statue. I had to make amends for that careless word very quickly. By even saying I thought the statue was ugly I had shocked a non - catholic friend of mine. (The edit was just grammar and spelling - I had no time to check it earlier)
It isn't "my theology" G. Its "our theology". Available as Moral Theology 101 at the nearest Catholic Uni near you.
No worries. Other members on the forum that they enjoyed and understood the analogy. I recommend a good book for you to read to help you grow in holiness & soundly based on the teachings of the Church and saints. http://www.amazon.com/The-Fulfillment-Desire-Ralph-Martin/dp/1931018367
Where are you from Blue? "Doing my head in" In Norn Iron (Northern Ireland) speech that means maybe something different than you meant in your post? "Doing my head in" is an Expression - Someone or something that really angers and annoys you. http://www.inyourpocket.com/belfast/How-till-spake-Norn-Iron-A-guide-to-local-phrases_70619f I hope my butterfly analogy didnt do your head in!!!
I didn’t say we have to avoid that devotion Joe, I don’t even know if we should or not, I'm confused. And as I said, from my point of view, the Pope is the first one offended with that insinuating official and public gift. I’ve only recommended some caution with that devotion to avoid stuff like this: View attachment 4096 It’s a good job she is holding her dress up! And that expression… View attachment 4095 The head of that uncommonly huge snake is not really crushed, is it? This is not a painting, it’s a 3D icon. View attachment 4094 I don’t know what to say about those innocent angels. View attachment 4093 Or about that funny eye thing… Thant God for being aloud to be scandalized by such “thing”, "supposingly a variation of the Imaculate Conception" devotion, because that means that, at least, a small part of that mystery has being revealed to me. And you can be sure that I wouldn’t aloud, in any cirunstance, such isult to get inside my Church, we are not "satanudos". Statue of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, Sameiro Shrine, Braga May Our Lord Jesus forgive us for the sins committed against the Immaculate Heart of His Blessed Mother.
...as in what planet am I on?! I'm from the antipodes, DownUnder, Godzone (God's own), same place as Mac and Joe at the moment. Down here it doesn't really have that meaning. Here its more neutral and even self-deprecating, more along the line of "driving me nuts", "really distracting me" etc.
Talking about my country and our culture, I can add yet another danger. The only person I have met that follows that devotion is this nice lady, with a very difficult life, who showed me a little nice card representing the original picture of Our Lady the Undoer of Knots with a little prayer on the back. She told me that she carries that card in her purse since her daughter got divorced and started to have lots of problems. Somebody has given her that as the right devotion for her family problem. However, in Portugal, the knot is a common and popular meaning for marriage! People very often say “I going to tie a knot”, “vou dar o nó”, meaning, “I’m going to get married”. That’s not just an oppinion, that's in every dictionary, that’s the nice and less formal way of saying I’m getting married”. I find it very confusing, in a country where the knot means marriage, going to pray for the rebuilding of someone’s marriage to a picture of a lady untying the knots on a wedding ribbon… It's just a bad coincidence.Though I think that's better just pray by the traditional devotion of Our Lady of the Immaculate Conception, but that’s just my opinion. Our Lady the Undor of Knots celebrations, Campinas, Brazil
Basto my very limited experience of educated Catholics from Spanish and Portuguese countries is that, in contrast to Australians and New Zealand Catholics, is that there is a somewhat higher tendency to identify ambiguity/patterns, a sensitivity to the spiritual in the literal meaning of things, and a keener appreciation of the importance of the outward in shaping the inward. Australians of course are pretty much the opposite - we grow up with a colonial psychological "freedom" unhampered by the usual restraints of tradition or fear of scandal and a sensitivity to the material at the expense of any sensitivity to the spiritual or even intellectual. We do not see generally see spiritual danger in things simply because imagination suggests ambiguous provenance at a purely material level. They say its because Australia was founded by working class convicts expelled from Britain! In this light the concerns you have above would, here, generally seem of little to no consequence to a sincere person devoted to Our Lady Untier of Knots where the alternative "occult" meanings you speak of are not present in our language. And even if they were (yes "knot" and marriage does have the same colloquial meaning) I am thinking it is bordering on a sort of religious scrupulosity, a sort of over-discernment, to be this concerned about ambiguous hidden meanings - what the French might call religious double entendres. (Of course the intention behind that less than subtle painting you zoomed in on is quite clear and present). It seems to me that it is inherent in any material/bodily expression of the spirit (the definition of what it means to be human) that the meaning behind our actions and religious works are always open to a rationalised misinterpretation. A point comes when scandal is more in the eye of the beholder than the doer. I far prefer the stable, "slow to anger" Christian character portrayed by Augustine when he summed up his spirituality in that concise phrase "Love God and do what you will". It was iconic for him, just like "Who am I to judge" will forever be for holy Pope Francis!
In the second century St Iraneous wrote "the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through through unbelief, this did the Virgin Mary set free through faith." (Adversus haereses, 3,22) This inspired devotion to Our Lady Untier of Knots. In Akita Our Lady wept 101 times: 1 for Eve, O for God's eternal love, 1 for Mary. The original painting completed in 1700 and given to the church was inspired by the words of St Iraneuous and done as an expression of gratitude for helping a couple escape marital dificulties and preserving their marriage. In Garabandal knots of many tangled rosaries, medals on chains etc would untangle in a wondrous way when returned to their owners after these objects had been been kissed by Mary. Just so Our Lady untangles us from the knots that hold us in disobedience to God and hold us back from doing God's will. Pope Francis has a great devotion to Our Lady Untier of Knots. His opponents would say he needs it! I say, like me, he is grateful for it. What bothers me is that his opponents would use even an image of The Virgin as a club to beat him. Just as enemies of the Pope accuse him of promoting a false mercy so they seem to suggest a false freedom is offered through this devotion. For them, anything the Pope promotes is not to be trusted. As ever I trust him 100%. He knows what is upon us. Both him and, according to some media reports the Queen of England, referred to the last one as our final Christmas (as we know it) and said the world will soon be unrecognizable. Therein in lies the ultimate knot but Our Lady of Akita assures us "Pray very much the prayers of the rosary. I alone am able to still save you from the calamities which approach. Those who place their trust in me will be saved." We can be loosed even from this knot. Through Mary to Jesus.
Basto I am almost too afraid to ask what the motorcycle procession has to do with the Festival? That's you on the black motorbike with the long pause at 45 secs or so isn't it . Or maybe its Joe bilocating from Mac's SSPX processional celebrations here in NZ.
I didn’t ask anybody to avoid that devotion, perhaps there are really faithful people inside this forum who might feel offend with the information above, but that wasn’t my intention at all. Even if it’s not one of my favourites, I believe that most of the fallowers are doing it in the right and holy way. I have only recommended you some cautions, that’s all, especially in the countries where this is a novelty, because the Virgen Desatanudos is, in fact, a bit controversial in Latina America where is a quite popular devotion for decades. I didn’t make up a theory inside this thread, but you can always do a little search through the Spanish web.
The devotion is good. Why sow doubts. There is no need for caution. This is all about Pope Francis again. He has a devotion to Our Lady Untier of Knots therefore, according to his opponents, it must be viewed with suspicion. If it has been misused by Satanists that has nothing to do with good Catholics who have nothing to do with their sin. I say leave the dead to bury the dead. Don't waste time digging their graves...or searching the web for their sin. Just be glad that Mary is there to help us in all the scrapes we get ourselves into.
