There's a Catholic radio show (Patrick Madrid maybe?) where the sign off is: "Become a Saint - what else is there?" I say, Amen to that!
Yes this is what I am thinking too. There are spirits of God (angels) who mediate his Spirit in a less recognisable and more obscure way. When good pagans of old in fragmentary or obscure fashion sought God in spiritual virtue and beauty and truth for which they were prepared to make many temporal sacrifices it is quite conceivable this is an arrow targeting God Himself even if He is not clearly visible through the clouds. Its not all demonic. How do we know when a heathen (pagan may not the correct term as paganism suggests organised belief in primitive animistic religions and idols) is of God or not? Well, just as Padraig suggests. By their fruits. Many heathens exhibit good fruit consistently from what I have experienced, even today. "Don't forget to show hospitality to strangers, for some who have done this have entertained angels without realizing it!" (Hb 13:2) I like that view. The difficulty perhaps is recognising the nature of fruits, which I suppose is a prudential judgement and always open to argument. Some would have us believe (Irish Jansenism) that fruits that otherwise look good must be bad simply on the basis of lack of Christian belief in the agent. I have never found this tautological (eg irresistable forces can never be moved) artificial certainty terribly satisfactory in the light of apparent fruit to the contrary.
I am really looking at the principles behind the assumptions we are all trotting out here Picadillo. Personally I am not at all impressed by the beliefs of this particular artist himself (I see nothing demonstrably hostile to core Christian values in his Vatican projections). The belief that spiritual truth can be accessed by drug induced states is typical of self obsessed artists who have lost the plot ... just as it is for some Hindu gurus who believe the same thing. We all know here that spiritual cultivation is bloody hard work and always a response to God's pre-emptive invitation. It is often without consolations and even if preternatural phenomena and euphoric feelings are involved...these are to be ignored as these are optional effects of God's presence not The Presence itself.
Don't forget to show hospitality to strangers, for some who have done this have entertained angels without realizing it!" (Hb 13:2) Im not to familiar with this chapter . Your quote caught my eye and sounded great Bh. So I looked it up Interesting chapter . Something for everyone. This I liked also.. 7Remember your prelates who have spoken the word of God to you; whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation, 8Jesus Christ, yesterday, and to day; and the same for ever. 9Be not led away with various and strange doctrines. For it is best that the heart be established with grace, not with meats; which have not profited those that walk in them.
I find the "drama" of adult conversion a fascinating mystery. What sort of world does one live in before "conversion". Is it purely "secular" (where Christianity is at first seen as just another inconsequential variation on any other organised religion). In which case conversion is about finally discovering a small pocket of grace, a true religion, where the "numinous" flows into the world like a spring through the arid ground of secularity. Or is the whole world always "numinous" in some way and official "religions" are a bit like lenses where we experience an unexpected increase in the strength of that pull for a variety of different reasons depending on the religion involved? In which case "conversion" is finally integrating the always present, numinous aspect of life into our belief system whereas before we ignored it. Hopefully Christianity, being the truest religion, is the institution that does that best. But other religions are also valid places for seeking God though more work purifying mistaken aspects may be needed. Drugs aside I think the answer is likely yes. Worship of idols and pagan understanding of Yahweh is still easily found in Catholics. Being baptised doesn't change that over night - though one would hope growing up in a Catholic environment sheds such ignorance more quickly. Surely the arduous process of internalisation of truth (of overcoming ignorance) is not short-circuited simply by being "Catholic". Proof of internalised Faith is right doing rather than simply right doctrines or right ritual (Sacraments) I think? I find a lot of invincible ignorance within the Church also. Don't you?
That's a very interesting post FS. Nah, "guide" is the right word. "Rule" is for the Holy Spirit. You might be the type who needs to poke the heater to see if it really burns. I prefer to learn from other's mistakes without getting burnt myself. That's the sort of spiritual "logic" that guides me . OK, you distinguish goodness from holiness. I think this reverts to Augustinism and the "splendid vices" of the best of pagans. They can be virtuous (possess all the Cardinal Virtues) but their final end is temporal and not supernatural because they do not possess the higher Theological Virtues (faith, hope and charity) directed at Yahweh. Its a consistent mainstream approach but not the only one offered by Catholic tradition from my readings. Aquinas seems to have gone further. If you are interested click here You are taking a bit of a cup half empty approach aren't you? I mean, if holiness is "being touched by God" I interpret that to mean many non-Christians must in fact be anonymous Christians of some sort as evidenced by their fruits. Cup half-full. You do the reverse, not-baptised?, no holiness here, move on (you do not even stop to look at the fruits ). "A man has no greater love than to lay down his life for his friends." (Jesus) If I see a parent truly doing that for their children...I see holiness, love of God, implicit in that selfless love of man. God must be there, holiness must be there, regardless of what "official" religious conditions may or may not be. Aquinas may well agree too in the article linked above.
But as usual you never explain yourself Mac-ers. You are the consummate spiritual hit and run Jedi. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/yoda-busted-hit-and-run-germany-police-article-1.969913 If you don't try and give a reason to others for the faith you possess how will it grow and mature? The Force will not be with you.
True love of neighbour always includes at least implicitly the love of God. 1 John 4v20 We love, because He first loved us. If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.
Yes that is my point too Garabandal. If we see a pagan who truly loves his neighbour and is capable of sacrificing himself for others then he is holy. He has been first loved by God. He implicitly loves the God he cannot see.
It is possible to lead a holy life only through the power of the promised Holy Spirit living within us. Ephesians 1:13 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, Thereafter being justified by Faith Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, The Christian Faith is not some optional bolt on extra, a kind of hobby.
But I must not get drawn into these long drawn out theological endless discussions. They are a waste of air. I must get back to the Spiritual. Fair thee well. I'll leave you to it.
There is, I caution, a, 'Theology', that seeks to impress people with one's own learning and mental agility and a true Theology of the heart, of Spirituality and prayer. The false theology of the head seeeks to engage in endless debate and words and quenches the Spirit. The one is of Pride and the World, the other of true Humilty and of the Holy Spirit. The one vain and full of Ego. The other, of the heart, the very Ladder to Heaven. It's book is the humble Rosary.
First you have to chose the red or blue pill. You cant take both or it will do your head in.From what I have noticed. View attachment 3905
Sigh. Here comes the predictable but false heart versus head card! You have a good day Padraig, time to walk the dogs perhaps?
Don't take this in the wrong Spirit Blue and please don't rush to answer me, take this to Our Lady in prayer. But is any of this drawing you any closer to Jesus? Is any of this endless debate and smart comments making you any holier? Or are these endless words just that endless, endless words? We only have a very limited time in this world, which is very passing. Very limited. We must not waste the time we are given. Pray about this.
Take time to pray about what I have written Blue, pray about it for a few days. Don't rush in with a quick, smart dismissive comment. Please.
