DG I agree with most of where you seem to be going here. It is my experience that virtuous pagans in practice are far more numerous than the medievals allowed, especially when we consider that virtuous Christians (let alone priests) are far fewer than we once thought. So much of our appreciation of unexperienced reality is influenced by our preceding theoretic beliefs borrowed from others we regard in awe. A white middle class European has only to experience "full immersion" in a completely foreign, non Christian country (where your survival is at the behest of your sponsors) to realise that there are a lot of very ordinary families out there significantly more compassionate and open than ourselves on average. Sure, acquired virtue amongst the pagans of the likes of Aristotle and co is pretty rare, but somewhat lesser virtue it seems to me is evident in many sincere pagans who are seeking goodness and improvement like some Christians.
I look back over the history of the last 2 millennium of Catholicism/Christianity and I ponder many things, especially in regards to pagans. Just look at Our Lords birth. When one considers Christ’s birth one can’t help but notice that sacred scripture informs us (the world) that it was not Our Lords chosen people that were there to give Him a welcome!....... but It was the pagan gentiles that came to do Him homage and to worship Him! The pagans saw His rising star in their sacred astronomy and they brought Him gifts, they gave of their time, their skills and their wealth! As for God’s chosen people, He had to send His angels to announce (in other words.... wake them up) and inform them of this great new glorious morning! But pagans are there! Even at His birth!, Front and Centre! and they are the only ones giving Him the due homage as the King of Kings! There is so much more to consider throughout sacred scripture in relation to pagans, that it’s worth a look, I think.
Would it be true to say that we all get the call from God, through our conscience if not from the religion we are exposed to? Can one extend the excuse of invincible ignorance to a contemporary who decides to put his "faith" in such pagan deities combined with the use of psychedelic drugs?
I love how you are looking at this Josephite! You are using the lens of God. I laugh a bit at the uproar as if some devil worshiping artist imposed his will or tricked someone to have his light show. God is in charge. We may not understand the why of all this, but there is no doubt this us part of God's plan. Who knows, maybe some atheist or fallen way Christian was drawn to this because of the show and perhaps they actually entered St. Peter's. We know God is everywhere, but perhaps in that brief moment, in that beautiful Church, they too sense God, maybe a spark of inspirational came to them. But, like I said, God is in charge.
When artists speak of being inspired by a muse or similar you believe this is always the same as summoning the devil? Inviting a muse to inspire your work is an open door to spirits - There are only 2 kinds of spirits. The Holy spirit (and the angels who are not summoned to our whims, but only obey God) and the demonic. The devil is a liar and a counterfeit of the works of God. Would you also agree with the exaggerated view of Augustine (perhaps due to the Irish Christians amongst us of which I include myself) that all pagan virtues are merely “splendid vices”? No - I think pagan virtue is following God's law that is written on every human heart. And I think that all of the good works, by pagans and Christians, that do not have the inspiration of the Holy Spirit are works in service to some false god, most often the false god of self, and have no eternal value and move us farther and farther away from the purpose for which we were created.
50,000 questions from a friend that lets logic rule his existence My days on the forum might be coming to a end... but you do keep things interesting. There is no holiness outside christianity. There is goodness touched by God. But no holiness outside christianity. Holiness comes directly from God. Now did God intervene before the Pentecost and create Holy men? Of course. There are natural laws that God created and must follow but every now and then He guides his people through His Divine touch. Holiness is union with the divine. Perfect union was available to everyone once Our Lord Jesus died for our sins. But before and even today people can be good by being touched by God. But that is not Holiness. God is real, spirits are real, the "created one" is real...this changes logic and your starting point. May Gods Will be Done
Kathy k, The protector of the faith st. Augustine and st. Ratzinger would be proud. Even though they teach us not to be proud. Lol Our posts are only as good as Our Prayer Life. Keep up the good work. Your Friend, Brother al Note: theres more saints here that st. Augustine and st. Ratzinger would be proud of but Kathy seems to be on the front lines
Interesting post but how do we know the wise men were pagans? I always thought they were Jews from the east that were descendants of the Jews from Daniels day when they had been conquered and taken east under Nebacanezer. Were they not sacred astronomers and Jewish? Maybe we really don't know who they were and this was just a theory.
Blue, Are you insinuating this artist is a "virtuous pagan?" Perhaps he is an ex-catholic who has rejected Christ and his church. If the latter was the case, would that change your opinion of the "art show" at the vatican on the feast day of the Immaculate Conception?
I was not point my finger at any particular song Krizevac, actually I like Foo Fighters, and I don’t see anything wrong in that song, but I didn’t pay attention to it properly yet. I just think we should leave that kind of music outside a forum like this, even if it doesn’t have any lyrics, but that’s just my opinion. I also love to listen brass bands especially playing Christmas carols. Pop and rock music has been one of Satan’s best achievements. When I was a teenager used to be crazy for the grunge sounds, and hard rock in general, but I didn’t really understand most of those lyrics in English… Today I still look at The Stone Roses as one of the best British rock bands of ever but I have only started really paying attention now at the meaning of some of those lyrics in their smooth sound and that’s pure Satanism. Well, that could be a very good and educative thread.
Basto what you say so resonates with me. Not only 3 years ago you would have found me always listening to rock music. I was always a music junkie. Favorite all time bands were Pearl Jam, Tom Petty, Foo Fighters, Pink Floyd, Led Zepplin, the Beatles, the Dead, etc. Now I really hardly ever desire to even listen to this kind of music. I have an ipod that has nearly 6,000 songs on it and yet all I ever listen to is church music or catholic radio. It actually astounds me how much and how quickly things in my life changed. Oddly enough I had two interesting dreams in over the past 2 years that were clearly a warning and somewhat of an illumination of my former life. I have mentioned them on the forum before so this is the cliff note versions of them. 1. On the night following after I made my consecration to Jesus through Mary per St. Louis de Montfort's way I had a dream that turned into an evil attack. The short version of the dream was that I was on a boat with friends fleeing a horrific natural disaster scene. As we were headed out to sea away from the shore this mist appeared over the horizon heading to the boat. As it was approaching in a sweet voice out of the mist came, " I am the spirit of art" As soon as it said this I had images of many forms of the arts, dance, music, theatre, etc. As it engulfed over the boat I was all of a sudden no longer dreaming but was now awake in my bed with my eyes still closed and yet fully lucid. The mist was hovering above the bed. The mist then turned toward my sleeping wife and began to try and do not good things. I reached up and tried to grab it off of her and then it was instantly over top of me pressing me down on my chest. It was extremely heavy and I could not move. I had no fear and instantly began to call out in prayer "Hail Mary!" Before I even finished saying the blessed mother's name it was completely gone. There is more to the story but I said I would try to be brief. 2. I had another dream that was truly an illumination of conscience experience. This was a complete dream and I never awoke as in the last experience but to this day I still remember every detail of it. In this dream I was in a large entry way of a school. There were many people in this area and there was this person who I believe to be an angel standing at a door that led down a school hall way. As I approached the door the angel instructed me about what was going to happen as I went down the hall. I was to go into each room until the end of the hall way. I do not remember all of the rooms but I do remember what was happening in all the rooms. In each room they were different scenes or reminder of happenings in my life where sin was involved. I remember one room very clearly. In it was a concert with the band Phish playing (had been to many Phish shows in my day). After the concert I was backstage and the lead singer came up to me and was asking me where I had been and why I had not been around for awhile. Before I came to the last room of the hall way the angel was once again standing before me. He told me that this last room would be my hardest. He said there would be evil in the room and that when I felt that I could no longer take it in the room then all I had to do was call out to the Lord three times. When I went into the room it was an absolute feeling of dread and fear. There were two demons in there that looked like maybe 12 year old kids and they were where just moving and looking and jeering at me in a very frightful way. I remember not being able to take it very long (prob a few seconds tops but felt much longer). I began to call out to Jesus but nothing came out. Then it was a whisper and finally I was able to call out to Him the third time. As soon as I did this, the evil was gone and this overwhelming feeling of peace and love was no in the room. Standing before me was this beautiful male deer with a perfect rack of antlers just staring at me. I was puzzled as to why this deer was there now. The deer began to walk toward me and the next thing I know was that it was no longer a deer but Jesus himself. He was holding me in my arms like a baby just looking down at me and smiling. It was so amazing and I can still see his face as I think of that dream right now. It was a brief second of love and peace in the arms of the Lord and then it was all gone and I was back out in the main area of the school. All these people were still gathered there and the angel was still at the door. Next I remember going over to the other people trying to encourage them to have the faith to walk down that hall way. It was not mandatory to do so but completely voluntary. There is so much more to this story too that was already posted in the forum in the share you dreams and experience thread. This talk of the arts and satan definitely rings true to me and these two encounters where very powerful in my understanding of the dangers of the arts in which I was so engaged in all my life.
That’s interesting, I can’t remember having any dream like that but I do remember waking up in the middle of the night in panic and praying, coming out of something exactly as you described: “ it was instantly over top of me pressing me down on my chest. It was extremely heavy and I could not move.” I love Pearl Jam as well. Led Zepplin is really spooky, there are video clips playing “stairway to heaven” backwards. You should start a thread (I don’t know if there is one) about songs that should be avoided by Catholics (and why) because there are many people (me included) that sometimes don’t realize how bad a song can be. This subject is out of thread.
Matthew 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. The narrow gate is the Church. Who would want to gamble with their Eternal soul by entering through any other gate? Maybe some pagans will make it, maybe some pagans won't. Why take a chance? http://www.catholic.com/blog/jon-sorensen/the-early-church-fathers-and-paganism
The Fathers of the Church took a very severe stance indeed towards Paganism. Google, 'Fathers of the Church on Paganism' and see for yourselves. What was good enough for the Fathers of the Church should be good enough for us, I think. In fact they regarded idol worship as devil worship and those who partake in such things as devil worshippers. 'We do not reverence the same gods as you do, nor offer to the dead libations and the savour of fat, and crowns for their statues, and sacrifices. For you very well know that the same animals are with some esteemed gods, with others wild beasts, and with others sacrificial victims. And, secondly, because we— who, out of every race of men, used to worship Bacchus the son of Semele, and Apollo the son of Latona…or some one or other of those who are called gods— have now, through Jesus Christ, learned to despise these, though we be threatened with death for it, and have dedicated ourselves to the unbegotten and impossible God; of whom we are persuaded that never was he goaded by lust of Antiope, or such other women, or of Ganymede, nor was rescued by that hundred-handed giant whose aid was obtained through Thetis, nor was anxious on this account that her son Achilles should destroy many of the Greeks because of his concubine Briseis. Those who believe these things we pity, and those who invented them we know to be devils.' St Justin
The mention of Texas and angels made me think of you and this song. https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=U...&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=8i5zVsqCKsLKmAX_u7m4Ag
The narrow gate may be wider that we can imagine... If this Medjugorje message is to be believed we may want to calculate just how many non-Christians can make their way to heaven via purgatory. Take the current world population at around seven billion, and Our Lady’s words at face value – her statement that the majority of souls go to Purgatory. Let’s put that majority at slightly more than half the world population, say 4 billion or 400,000,000,000 (four hundred thousand million). Wiki lists the number of Christians in the world as amounting to 2.2 billion and Islamists as 1.6 billion, a total of 3.8 billion. So even if we allow for all Christians and all Islamists to make it into Purgatory, there is still room in the place for more souls – and that’s allowing for a majority of just over 50% of the world. How do the figures stack up the other way around, taking 1% going direct to Heaven and 48% to Hell That would leave plenty of room in Hell not just for all the other faiths and non-believers combined but also for a considerable number of Christians. So who’s for upping the average majority figure that go to Purgatory?
Awwwwwwwwww! Just remember, when they come to investigate my cause, it will help considerably if there is a consensus that I was as humble as a worm.
