When to Disobey

Discussion in 'Positive Critique' started by padraig, Jan 26, 2023.

  1. padraig

    padraig Powers

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  2. miker

    miker Powers

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    Canon 1752 is the last one in canon law…And I’ve once heard from our pastor that this is the ultimate “law” …. He must adhere to as a priest. So I would guess if told (ordered) to follow something he discerned put a soul in danger of losing its salvation, this cannon would permit him to not follow. Is that disobedience? I think not. As it’s actually obedience to his vow as a priest.


    Bishop Strickland of Texas said this….

    The final words of Canon 1752 of the Code of Canon Law of the Roman Catholic Church “The salvation of souls which must always be the supreme law in the Church, is to be kept before one’s eyes”
    Forgetting this mandate is the root of our present crisis.”
     
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  3. jackzokay

    jackzokay Powers

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    The media machine has swung into full overdrive against him here in Ireland. They illicit the same, tried and tested tactics. Slander. Calling him a bigot and all the rest of it.
    They jailed him, and he went willingly.
    But they released him because people were starting to gather outside the prison in support of him, and they realised that if that gained momentum, they'd have a hero on their hands.
    So now the 700 euro a day fines.
    God bless him.
    He is a man of great courage.
     
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  4. jackzokay

    jackzokay Powers

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    Excellent post.
     
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  5. Mario

    Mario Powers

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    A great quote: if extracted from a speech or homily, it would be great to read the whole thing in context!

    Safe Under Mary's Mantle!
     
  6. Mario

    Mario Powers

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    I add this video to the discussion. It has actually "set in concrete" not only my belief that the TLM should be preserved, but also that the Novus Ordo might violate the intent of the Council of Trent.



    Mary, Queen of Wisdom, pray for us!
     
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  7. miker

    miker Powers

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    I’ve not had chance to watch video… but when you write this… are you questioning the validity of the NO Mass?
     
  8. Mario

    Mario Powers

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    No. What I do perceive is a rupture in the liturgical development from past centuries, which was probably (may I say unjustly?) chosen for ecumenical purposes.:unsure::whistle:

    As I have presented elsewhere: Lex orandi, lex credendi (Latin: "the law of what is prayed [is] the law of what is believed").

    I do see a doctrinal murkiness that used the Novus Ordo, in part, as a launch pad.

    O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2023
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  9. miker

    miker Powers

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    Thanks for that background.. much appreciated
     
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  10. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

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    I have been praying and reflecting a lot about this issue - as one who has never attended a Latin Mass.

    So I was raised on Novus Ordo - I have been blessed all my life with good orthodox priests in the places where I have lived and have never for one second questioned the validity of any of the Masses I have attended. The rubrics have been followed to the letter.

    I am happy that I have been receiving our Blessed Lord at each Mass I have attended.

    The fact that Eucharistic miracles continue to happen at Novus Ordo Masses is another indicator that the Mass is both valid and licit.

    Of course, I would want to see improvements - I can live with the Novus Ordo if they introduced some Latin, some Gregorian chant, introduced kneelers and receiving on the tongue only and also the priest ad orientum with the altars returned to their proper place.

    I think some people go way too far in their criticism of the Novus Ordo because of the abuse by some clergy.

    But also I would like to see the Latin Mass available as well - the restrictions they are imposing are a disaster.

    But for anyone to say they would never attend a Novus Ordo Mass because of ideological position is injurious to the body of Christ, the Church. The Church is indefectable and the Novus Ordo Mass is both valid and licit when the rubrics are followed.
     
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  11. miker

    miker Powers

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    Well said. Amen
     
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  12. padraig

    padraig Powers

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    I am remember years and years ago in the Monastery I worked on the farm for a couple of years. I was a city boy and loved the farming, most especially since they used to breed and train very high quality sheep dogs. In the very early morning after prayers (about 4am) I used to take a pack of dogs into the forest and down by the river for a walk. There were about 8 or nine of them and they ran free but stayed close, like I say very well trained, you never even had to call them.

    Then one morning right out of the blue, after Mass the Abbott curtly informed that I was no longer working in the farm but in the Gardens and with growing veg. Giving me the news he turned and walked away. Of course monks are supposed to obey like the dead ,seeing in the Abbott's wishes the voice of God himself.But there is a kind way of doing things and I don't think the Abbott happened to like me very much at all.

    I had loads of chances to reflect on the fact that obedience is the hardest of all vows to fulfill. It is at the heart even of the Blessed Trinity were Jesus was obedient even unto death.

    A couple of years later when I had left the monastery came to kill me one Sunday morning. We had two Rottweilers in the house, and the bitch had pups so they attacked the gun men straight away, biting them. Plus my brother threw a cup of very hot coffee in one of their faces. So they left in a great hurry. Outside local Catholics who were walking to mass spotted them and threw stones at their car. So they were sorry they came.

    Anyway I heard through the grapevine who they were , that they would be coming back . I did not mind them shooting me but knew if they came back they would also shoot my family, including my mother and father so I decided to head down there and shoot them all first. These people were red necked Catholic killers and would stop at nothing.

    However my conscience bothers me and so first I went to a priest in confession. The priest told me this would be legitimate self defense and warned me it would be a mortal sin to kill them.

    I knew the priest is Confession is an Alter Christus and the voice of God , but the police here at that time hated Catholics with a Passion and would be in League with the killers, so I had no one to turn to for help but my own self. So I thought the priest was God. I went home , went to my bedroom and cried, fell to the floor for in agony and begged God for help.

    I heard quite clearly God's voice speaking.

    'I myself defend you''.

    Very strong, very clear. I was at once at peace and obeyed the priest and the voice.

    About a week later the two gunmen attacked a Catholic neighbourhood with a bomb. The British Army saw them , shot one dead and wounded and arrested the other one.

    I had been obedient God had defended me.

    Obedience can be a killer but we should obey.

    Philippians 2:8

    And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross!


     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2023
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  13. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

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    Lesson learned.
     
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  14. Lois

    Lois Guest

    After a few years of pondering it, I decided to start wearing a veil at Mass. I talked to the priest first though, because no other ladies that I knew of wore a veil so I really didn't want to cause a stir. He thought it was ok; said how nice the veils were to see and mentioned another lady who did so. So, although nervous, I started. I could feel the disdain others had for this almost immediately. But that didn't stop me, for awhile. After some time though, it was an internal fight with pride taking over and so I stopped. I was sad, so to cheer myself up I decided to go to the hairdresser ~ On the way over, a great voice boomed thru the car - "Do not cut your hair". Thinking I was just nuts and hearing things I kept driving. When I got out of the car, the hairdresser was locking up the shop. She looked at me and told me the power had just gone out..for the whole block. Haven't cut my hair since then. He really lets you know when He speaks.....
     
  15. padraig

    padraig Powers

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    I wonder if this incident had something to do with what St Paul said on the subject?

    1 Corinthians 11:2-16

    On Covering the Head in Worship
    2 I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the traditions just as I passed them on to you. 3 But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man,a]">[a] and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is the same as having her head shaved. 6 For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head.


    7 A man ought not to cover his head,b]">[b] since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10 It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her ownc]">[c] head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12 For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God.

    13 Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15 but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. 16 If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice—nor do the churches of God.

    [​IMG]
     
  16. padraig

    padraig Powers

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    I have often thought about how Our Blessed Lady appears in her Apparitions.

    First to note is that she always, always wears a veil,

    Second she always wears long, very modest robes.

    Well you might say this is a throw back to how women dressed at the time she was alive, that that is why she does this.

    But why should she? Why should she not dress as modern Western women do? She could if she wanted and this would make her, in the talk Of Modernists/Progressives , 'Relevant' and more, 'Impactful'.

    But she chooses not to do so.

    Why?

    I believe because that is the best way for women and to some extent men to dress . The way we should really be dressing.

    I know this sounds mad, but from what I have seen of the reports of mystics regarding heaven , this is the way, generally we will be dressed in heaven.

    There are some wonderful Indian women in the Churches from Kerala in India who wear Sari's in Sunday. I just think they look totally gorgeous, they remind me so much of the Blessed Virgin Mary.
    [​IMG]
     
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  17. Lois

    Lois Guest

    This passage was the trigger for me at the time. Of course, I had forgotten that last part.....until now ~ thank you
     
  18. padraig

    padraig Powers

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    Pretty well all women at out local Traditional Church wear head coverings , especially Mantilla's.

    It is very rare to see a man wearing a hat. Very,very rare indeed in Church.

    But when I do see a man wearing wearing a hat in Church I have the strongest temptation to run over and knock it off his head. :D:D

    [​IMG]
     
  19. Cherox

    Cherox Principalities

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    Several years ago the Lord put it on my heart to only wear modest dresses or skirts. Shortly after that I started wearing a veil. Now I wear a hat instead of the veil. We relocated about a year ago and I am the only woman who covers her head and one of only a few who wears a dress. Some wear jeans.
     
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  20. Lois

    Lois Guest

    One of the most difficult things to find where I live are decent dresses/skirts. Some would say "age appropriate", but I wouldn't have worn what's available now even in my teens or 20's.....on the bright side, I've been trying to learn to sew :)
     
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