That would be a kind of entrapment and an encouraging of evil that breeds more evil. As bad as that would be I'm afraid that in this situation as padraig has Said many times "if it acts like a duck.."
Of course, but it seems a preferable scenario to the one that seems most likely, on face value; in other words, the duck.
Without wanting to be pessimistic, it is worth remembering that the friendly Cardinal Schönborn hinted a few days ago that the change in the paragraph in the catechism on the death penalty was a precedent for other changes in doctrine. Furthermore, the Pope may allow himself to be "surprised by the holy spirit" at the end of the conclusions of the second synodal assembly in October of next year.
Is It a Canonical Synod of Bishops or Not? Some Observers Express Their Doubts Some canonists contend that now that laypeople are able to vote, it’s technically not. Cardinal Christoph Schönborn of Vienna during a press briefing at the Synod on Synodality Oct. 23, 2023. The cardinal told reporters that the Synod of Bishops “has not changed nature, but it has been enlarged.” (Photo: Edward Pentin ) Edward Pentin VaticanOctober 25, 2023 VATICAN CITY — As the current phase of the Synod on Synodality draws to a close, some of the assembly participants have questioned whether it is a Synod of Bishops given that, for the first time, lay members will have a vote and make up nearly one-fifth of the ballot. Since April when Pope Francis made such a groundbreaking change, 70 laypeople now have a vote out of 364 voting participants, and so the assembly is no longer strictly speaking a Synod of Bishops, some observers contend. Announced on April 26, the addition of laity was aimed at “restoring” the “constitutive relationship between the common priesthood [of the People of God] and the ministerial priesthood,” and “giving visibility to the circular relationship between the prophetic function of the People of God and the discernment of the Pastors.” The change is significant as, in previous synods, only bishops and some clerical heads of male religious institutes had a vote and a two-thirds majority was required for propositions or other motions to pass. Now, under the changes enacted by Pope Francis, laity can make up the numbers. If, for example, less than two-thirds of bishops voted in support of a proposition, the votes of the laity could bring up that support to match or exceed the two-thirds mark and so ensure it would be passed. In other words, although bishops might not support a proposition, laity can make it look as if they did, especially as the Vatican has said it won’t be giving a breakdown of how participants voted. Asked at a press briefing on Oct. 23 about whether, in light of this, the Synod on Synodality should, therefore, be rightly considered a Synod of Bishops, Cardinal Christoph Schönborn of Vienna said he did not see a problem with laity voting nor with calling it a Synod of Bishops, as it involves “real participation of non-bishops.” Laity and bishops, he said, now have a “closer connection.” The Synod of Bishops, he continued, is “a consultative organ for the exercise of the papal ministry,” but added that, according to him, adding lay votes “does not at all diminish the weight of votes.” ‘Enlarged’ Rather Than ‘Changed’ Nature The Synod of Bishops, he said, “is an organ to exercise the collegial responsibility for the teaching and the life of the Church,” and that role “has not changed nature, but it has been enlarged.” Cardinal Schönborn added, “We are all together in synod, in an episcopal synod, with an enlarged participation.” When the Register put it to him that lay votes could enable a vote to pass when fewer than two-thirds of bishops had voted in support of whatever was being voted upon, and therefore it could not rightfully be called a Synod of Bishops, he replied, “There are no casual explanations. Don’t ask me questions that are not discussed or decided. It is not on the agenda.” In response to a similar question about whether this assembly can truly be called a Synod of Bishops, Paolo Ruffini, president of the synod’s information commission, was similarly vague in his answer. He told reporters Oct. 14 that the participants “belong to the same communion of the same synodal assembly,” and that the lay members are “united by the common baptismal priesthood.” He recommended reading the First Letter of St. Peter “to know more about the baptismal priesthood.” On Oct. 25, he stressed again to reporters that the “episcopal character” of the synod “isn’t compromised” by non-bishops. But multiple synod participants have told the Register that this lack of clarity on whether or not the Synod on Synodality really is a Synod of Bishops remains a significant concern within the Paul VI Hall, with one bishop saying that it felt like “the equivalent of a plebiscite,” and another describing it as a “canonical and practical problem — the synod is an exercise in collegiality and episcopacy, but this is neither.” A Synod of Bishops or Not? A lay participant told the Register Oct. 24 that the issue has been repeatedly raised with the synod managers. “They have kept saying they don’t think it’s a Synod of Bishops, but those running it keep saying it is,” the participant said. In addition, Eastern rite and Orthodox delegates have insisted that the assembly taking place this month is not a synod as they understand it. Cardinal Mario Grech, secretary general of the Synod Secretariat, was visibly irritated when a participant confronted him with the question during a general congregation. “He insisted it was a Synod of Bishops and quickly moved on,” a lay participant member told the Register. Even the German bishops’ conference-backed news site Katholisch.de, which is sympathetic to the progressive goals of some of the synod delegates, reported Oct. 24 that “the legitimacy of the entire assembly” was being questioned and that the meeting was “in danger of running into an ecclesiastical crisis.” Doubts over its legitimacy led to the postponement of the publication of a “Message to the People of God,” eventually published one day later. “It is not clear what it means when an institution that was created to give the college of bishops a say is expanded to include non-bishops,” said the article. “It must be clarified bindingly who the subject is when the synod speaks of ‘we.’” Altering the Synod’s Nature By the Pope introducing lay voting members, canonists such as EWTN commentator Father Gerald Murray said that he ended the episcopal and hierarchical nature of a synod of bishops, and did so without the requisite canonical authority.
The change was made only through the April 26 announcement from the Synod Secretariat, saying that it was modifying Episcopalis Communio, Pope Francis’ 2018 apostolic constitution that had already made some alterations to the nature of the Synod of Bishops. The announcement asserted that the change to include non-bishops would not affect the “episcopal nature of the synodal assembly” but “rather it is confirmed,” and this is shown by the fact that non-bishops are fewer than 25% of the total number of assembly members. But Father Murray argued that, as the decision was made without a papal decree or any formal change in canon law, the General Assembly of the Synod and all its acts “would be subject to a technical complaint of canonical nullity [annulment], absent the publication of a papal decree giving legal force to the extension of membership in the Synodal Assembly to non-bishops.” A Rome canonist agreed with Father Murray, telling the Register that the “canons are quite clear, even in Episcopalis Communion for that matter, and there was no formal change of the latter by the Pope, but even if he had changed it, one could never call this a proper Synod of Bishops, not even if one were to use the expression obliquely so to speak.” Father Murray explained that the change ignores the fact that bishops act as priest, prophet and king in exercising their pastoral care, and that restricting their role to “simply discerning what the prophetic People of God as a whole might somehow determine to be according to God’s will is a mistaken appreciation of the nature of the episcopate.” ‘A Totally Different Assembly’ “What this means,” he said, “is that the Synod of Bishops is a totally different assembly in which laypeople who are not sacramentally conformed by holy orders to Christ the High Priest will be treated in law as equal to bishops.” He added that the changes “ignore the essential distinction between the ordained and the non-ordained in the Church,” and that “Christ’s establishment of a hierarchical Church means that certain roles pertain to the shepherds that do not pertain to the sheep.” “To create confusion in this matter by making non-bishops equal in law to bishops at the General Assembly of the Synod does harm to the Church by obscuring the roles of shepherd and sheep, creating the false impression that the hierarchical authority of the bishops can be legitimately exercised by the non-ordained. Such an understanding would violate the divinely established nature of the Church,” Father Murray added. The Rome canonist, also agreeing with these comments from Father Murray, said he believed calling the assembly a Synod of Bishops was “highly misleading” and could be used to “hide grave doctrinal deviations, besides sending the wrong message on what a pope, bishops and laypeople can or cannot do.” But he added: “They can vote all they want, they won’t change the truth of the Church, but the threat to faith and to the eternal salvation of souls remains enormous, which calls for intense prayer and urgent atonement.” To add to the concerns over the status of the meeting and the obscuring of episcopal and non-episcopal votes, the Synod Secretariat has said it will not give a breakdown of the voting to show how many bishop members and non-bishop members voted. The delegates vote electronically and by using an iPad placed on their roundtable, through which they also take the floor. In order to use the iPad, they must enter their unique QR code when they arrive which registers their name and personal details. Despite sharing this information with the synod organizers, the Synod Secretariat has insisted that voting will be totally anonymous, although informed sources within the synod have said those in charge of the assembly will know exactly how each delegate voted. As for voting on the crucial synthesis report, the Synod Secretariat has yet to reveal exactly how that will take place, but it confirmed on Wednesday that a vote will take place Saturday. Once passed, the 40-page document will form the lineamenta (guidelines) for the 2024 assembly. Ever since Pope St. Paul VI established the Synod of Bishops in 1965, it has been a consultative body through which selected bishops could provide, in a collegial manner, advice to the Pope in a final document passed by ballot. The Pope would then conclude the synod by writing, on the basis of a final document drawn up by bishops and synodal experts, a post-synodal apostolic exhortation. Canon law makes it clear that the synod is to be made up mainly of bishops with a small number of superiors of male religious institutes who also have a vote (346 §1). This exception is based upon the close relationship between the episcopate and the priesthood, and upon the exercise of governing authority by religious superiors who are priests. But overall, this has always been an episcopal gathering that promotes the common concern of all bishops to teach, govern and sanctify the People of God in the context of the contemporary world. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nc...r-not-some-observers-express-their-doubts?amp
I suggest everyone save this article because it can be used to dispel confusion if something heinous is approved at the end of this synod. Any error arising from it will not affect the fullness of the apostolic faith or the inerrancy of the Church. This is something that many Protestants, orthodox Christians, and Catholics in crisis of faith need to know.
Pope Francis speaks at Synod on Synodality: ‘Clericalism’ defiles the Church Pope Francis leads the Synod delegates in prayer, Oct. 25, 2024./ Vatican Media By Courtney Mares Vatican City, Oct 26, 2023 / 06:55 am Pope Francis denounced clericalism and called it a “scandal” to see young priests buying lace vestments at tailor shops in a strongly-worded speech to the Synod on Synodality on Wednesday. Speaking to an assembly of hundreds of Synod members on Oct. 25, the pope said that when clerics overstep their roles and “mistreat the people of God, they disfigure the face of the Church with macho and dictatorial attitudes.” Pope Francis described the faithful people of God as “patiently and humbly enduring the scorn, mistreatment, and marginalization of institutionalized clericalism.” “It is enough to go into the ecclesiastical tailor shops in Rome to see the scandal of young priests trying on cassocks and hats, or albs and lace robes,” he added. “Clericalism is a thorn. It is a scourge. It is a form of worldliness that defiles and damages the face of the Lord’s bride,” he said. “It enslaves the holy, faithful people of God.” The pope made his speech during the final week of the nearly month-long Synod assembly, where he listened to the interventions of cardinals, bishops, priests, religious sisters, and lay people speaking about “synodality” and their experiences in the Church. Pope Francis cited only one delegate’s intervention in his speech — that of Sister Liliana Franco, a Colombian religious sister who was one of 42 women who participated in the Amazon Synod, where she spoke at a controversial tree planting ceremony in the Vatican Gardens. In his speech, Pope Francis praised the female intuition that led women to approach Jesus’ empty tomb after the Resurrection. He noted that many members of the Church hierarchy received their faith from their mothers and grandmothers, adding that the faith is often transmitted “in a feminine dialect.” Much of the pope’s speech focused on “the scourge” of clericalism and worldliness, a theme that the pope has been focused on since the start of the Synod.
During the first week of the Synod assembly, Pope Francis gave each participant a copy of a book that he wrote titled, "Santi, non mondani: La grazia di Dio ci salva dalla corruzione interiore" ("Holy, not Worldly: God's Grace Saves us from Interior Corruption"). The book is a compilation of a text published by Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio when he was archbishop of Buenos Aires in 2005 called "Corruption and Sin" and a strongly-worded letter that Pope Francis wrote to all priests in the diocese of Rome on August 5. “How naturally we speak of the princes of the Church, or of episcopal promotions as getting ahead career-wise … the worldliness that mistreats God’s holy and faithful people,” Pope Francis said in his Synod speech. The pope added that he was pained to find that some parish offices offer a “price list” for sacramental services, like a “supermarket of salvation” where priests act as “mere employees of a multinational company.” “Either the Church is the faithful people of God ‘on the way,’ — holy and sinful — or it ends up being a business offering a variety of services,” Pope Francis said.
Very well. I withdraw any speculation as to the Pope's personal behaviour. This homosexual Catholic, in First Things, expresses his discomfort with Pope Francis' approach to homosexuality. While this man accepts sodomy as a sin, he is critical of the Pope's concentration on those homosexuals who seek, not to seek chastity, but to have sodomy declared as not a sin: https://www.firstthings.com/web-exc...gay-catholic-i-dont-feel-seen-by-pope-francis My question is, why is papal emphasis on those who would normalise sodomy, while ignoring those who accept the teaching of the Church and struggle for chastity? If this pope permits the blessing of sodomy, which seems to be his intention, it will be a scandal beyond imagining. Why would he do this?
I've deleted the post, since it seems to be causing some upset. Perhaps, you might like to do the same with your quotation of it?
DeGualle, I think it is unnecessary and spiritually dangerous for you. We don't want you going down some spiritual rabbit hole.
Synod on Synodality: Anticipation and Tensions Brew Ahead of Synthesis Report Release The summary text will serve as a bridge between this month’s assembly and a second synodal gathering scheduled for October 2024, which in turn will offer concrete proposals to the Pope. Delegates at the Synod on Synodality will vote on the assembly's synthesis report on Saturday, Oct. 28, 2023. Jonathan Liedl/CNAVaticanOctober 27, 2023 A summary report of this month’s synodal assembly in Rome is nearing finalization — with both anticipation and apprehension mounting over what the critical document might contain. A final version of the document, which is expected to synthesize the proceedings of the synod’s nearly monthlong focus on how the Catholic Church can better include all its members, will be presented to the assembly’s 363 voting members tomorrow morning. Synod members are expected to vote on approving the document Saturday afternoon, with a final official version slated for publication in the late evening. The summary document is expected to include points of consensus that have been reached within the assembly during its focus on themes like inclusiveness and Church governance, but also areas of disagreement. It has been described by organizers as merely “transitory,” with a “simple style” and a “relatively short” length of 40 pages. Although the synthesis document is not a final synodal report that will be presented to the pope, it is widely seen as a critical point of inflection, setting the stage for the final step of the Synod on Synodality, a multi-year, global consultation process initiated by Pope Francis in October 2021. The summary text will serve as a bridge between this month’s assembly and a second synodal gathering scheduled for October 2024, which in turn will offer concrete proposals to the Pope. Therefore, “transitory” or not, the document is highly significant, as it will close the door on some topics and points of view, while ensuring that others remain a part of the synodal conversation. Significant Scrutiny Key questions remain over how the text will accurately represent the diversity of viewpoints that have emerged during four weeks of discussion — especially with widespread reports indicating the presence of significant tension inside the room, and concerns emerging over the process for making amendments to the text’s initial draft, which synod members received Wednesday morning. Outside of Paul VI Hall, the document’s expected contents have already become the source of significant media speculation, with some focusing on whether the document will “say anything new?” Others are more concerned about whether its description of the assembly’s views will accurately reflect what actually took place inside the synod hall — a difficult question to answer, given limited public access to the synod’s proceedings. Synod organizers are cognizant of the fact that significant outside scrutiny awaits the synthesis of the assembly’s work. “We are well aware that this Synod will be evaluated on the basis of the perceivable changes that will result from it,” noted Hollerich, the Synod on Synodality’s Relator General said Monday. Draft Leaked Adding to the scrutiny surrounding the final document, a report based on an embargoed version of the initial draft was published yesterday, suggesting that several Synod members have requested significant changes to the synthesis text before finalization. Published by The Pillar, the report indicated that an undisclosed number of bishops had planned to “push back” on controversial elements included in the 40-page draft. Among them are a proposal to establish a permanent synod to advise the Pope, a description of gauging the “consensus of the faithful” in “determining whether a particular doctrine or practice belongs to the apostolic faith," the introduction of continental assemblies, and the document’s characterization of the assembly’s views on the ordination of women, which sources told The Pillar was a distinctly minority position. The Pillar also reported that some delegates expressed concern that they had insufficient time to read the document before the amendment phase, which took place on Thursday. Procedural Questions Related procedural questions remain about how the final document is being amended and will ultimately be approved. After receiving the initial draft on Wednesday morning, the text was the subject of an afternoon general congregation, during which members could make brief speeches on its contents. Then on Thursday, Synod members reviewed the draft text in their small groups — of which there are 37, each including about 10 voting members. Each small group reviewed the 40-page document paragraph by paragraph and discussed desired changes before voting on amendments, called “modi.” The modi can call for “the elimination, addition, or replacement of passages” in the draft, Paolo Ruffini, the Synod’s chief communications officer, shared earlier this week. Each paragraph amendment required a simple majority of small group members for approval. Unlike table reports earlier in the process, a Synod member said, these amendments were directly submitted to organizers, without a presentation to the whole assembly. Debates on these amendments were described as particularly contentious, given participants’ awareness that this would be their last chance to influence the contents of the final document. The setup raises questions about how well Synod writers will be able to incorporate assembly feedback into the final document, especially since a significant number of amendments have been submitted. According to Friday’s press briefing, 1,025 amendments were collected in the small groups, and then 126 additional amendments were submitted by individuals. At the press briefing, it was also confirmed that members will vote on approving the text paragraph by paragraph. Each paragraph will need the approval of two-thirds of the members present for inclusion. It is unknown what would happen if a particular paragraph does not receive sufficient support from the assembly, and how that might affect the final document. Upon the document’s approval, it will be used in some further form of consultation with the Universal Church that is expected to take place in the months between this assembly’s conclusion and the October 2024 synod assembly — the details of which Synod members discussed and voted upon earlier this morning. Ahead of those deliberations, Hollerich said Synod participants will be expected to return to their local Churches to share “the fruits of their work” and to accompany “those local processes that will provide us with the elements to conclude our discernment next year.” One thing is for sure: While additional stages of the Synod on Synodality remain, what’s contained in tomorrow’s summary document will play a pivotal part in shaping the process going forward. https://www.ncregister.com/cna/syno...ns-brew-ahead-of-synthesis-report-release?amp
No your not in a minority of one. We're probably a minority of two. My post below dated 2 December 2022 is from the thread "All you need to know about the third Secret" This video of Father Elias Mary who visited Sr Agnus Sasagawa in a nursing home in Japan last year 2022, is interesting regards this topic. Sr Agnus' spiritual director, Father Yusuda (may he rest in peace) wrote a book on the Akita apparitions, which has never been translated from Japanese. Listen from 20 minute mark to the 35 minute mark it is amazing. As a by the way when Our Lady stated at Akita in 1973 to Sr Agnus ' the only arms that will remain for you are the rosary and the sign left by my son' ; I personally believe the sign Mary refers to is the permanent sign left at the 9 pines at Garabandal. Our Lady stated at Garabandal in 1961 to 1965 to the four girls, that after the warning there will be a Miracle. The greatest Miracle that Jesus will give the world since His death and resurrection. After this miracle, a permanent sign will be left for the world at the 9 pines at Garabandal. This sign will be miraculous as it will be seen, televised and remain for all time, however this permanently seen sign will have properties that prevent it from been touched or felt.
Hi Josephite, there is a book called Akita - The Tears and Message of Mary by Fr. Yasuda which was translated by John Haffert. Are you referring to another account by Fr. Yasuda, which has not yet been translated?
Several participants have said the synod seems very controlled. Yes, very controlled. They presented a “Letter to the People of God” and they told us to applaud it for courtesy, saying it was the consensus of everybody. The applause was the vote. They then brought it to every table and said everybody had to sign it. A woman or a man took photos of everybody signing it, and everybody was signing it. Then they said we had until 4 o’clock in the afternoon to send any amendments — but first, we had to sign it. the above are Cardinal Muller's response to the question in italics from the report https://www.ncregister.com/intervie...o-prepare-the-church-to-accept-false-teaching
Thanks Josephite. It's a relief to know that I'm not alone. I watched the video and found it very interesting. I'm not fully convinced that Our Lady appeared at Garabandal although there's no doubt that something extraordinary happened there. I'm inclined to believe that the sign will be the cross in the sky as described by St. Faustina. It wouldn't be visible to the whole world if it were only in Garabandal. I'm also wary of any suggestion, no matter how vague it is, that we will have a sell-out Pope approaching the end times. I got the impression that was how they were interpreting what the Japanese pastor had written or said. I'm probably mistaken. Regarding the Synod, Michael Lofton has another video attempting to explain what Pope Francis is about. As often is the case with his videos, it leaves a lot to be desired but some of it is good. His guests were a Jesuit priest who made some sense along with someone I didn't recognise and who struck me as a complete nincompoop but that could be down to my own poor judgment. The religious sister talking gibberish in the clips on the Raymond Arroyo programme is Irish. I think she's from the Loreto order. God help us.
