"Pharisees," "Schismatic," "Attackers/Haters," "Prodigal Son's Elder Brother," "Unmerciful," etc.

Really fine stuff here Jarg. I appreciate the quotes from saints. Always always helpful. One time in front of the Blessed Sacrament during my hour of Adoration, I was struggling with an obedience issue in my circumstances at that time--to a superior. Really seeking guidance from the Lord. I heard this "inner thought" that was very clear and concise and very counter cultural. "Be obedient in everything but sin." I took it to mean, If someone in authority over you asks you to sin you are obliged to disobey--not with rancor but with firm purpose. In everything else, humility and respect for their authority. In our world it is very very difficult to humble ourselves to authority. Perhaps in any world at any time. Hardest thing there is.

 

Bravo, Praetorian. Beautifully said.

 

OUCH. Gee, KS, tell me how you really feel.
Nobody knows another's heart--nobody. You can look at the actions but that's all you can do. As a very fine priest once told me, "I've seen a lot of actions, but I have never seen a motivation." I don't think we even know ourselves sometimes what our true motivation is. Thank God it is God who judges us and not our fellow man. Who could ever live up to that yardstick of measurement?
I really didn't want to get caught up in this. I've been so grateful for this site, for all the posters, all of you. You seem in spite of differences of opinion to be of "one heart and one mind" as the Book of Acts describes Christians. This kind of personal vitriol pains me so much. Padraig and the moderators do heroic labor to keep everything up and running. I have not been here that long but I have never seen any bullying of any kind. Putting things out in the light of day to debate them, to qualify them, to discern them is necessary and healthy. Yes things get heated but again, I remember a quote from a saint and can't remember who that lays out the way we can "discuss." It ends up "in all things charity." (anybody remember the full quote?) The word diabolos in Greek means to pull apart or to divide.

 

AED, the quote is 'in essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, in all things charity'. The saying is attributed to St Augustine but I'm not sure that's accurate. Regardless, it's a useful thing to keep in mind. You are right that people on this forum all seek God and wish to serve him. I get so much from this place!

 

Thank you Clare!!!

 

I am not happy with this anti Pope claptrap. We should be praying for the Holy Father, not criticising him on the public web. We must always be obedient to the Holy Father and the Magisterium, as he is the successor to St Peter. Pope Francis has the "keys of the Kingdom". Our Blessed Mother would want total loyalty to the Holy Father. Brian, I detect a lot of anger in your posts. All we need do is keep praying the Rosary, the most powerful weapon we have. All this anti Pope stuff on the public web is in itself Satanic and not from Heaven. Pray the Rosary, be at Peace about everything and stay silent as our Lord was silent during his passion. The Catholic Church is the One, True, Holy and Apostolic Church founded by Christ, the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Our Lord and His Blessed Mother will look their Church. Pray and keep silent, Brian, your doing your Church a great disservice by all this claptrap on the public web.

 

"Pray and keep quiet. Don't worry, we're taking care of this."

Yeah, right. That's what they told the victims of pederasty and their families. How'd that work out?

 

Paddy, yes and there is a reason why Our Lady has constantly urged us to pray for the Holy Father and pray for our Church. She has not told the world to resist our Holy Father, she has not asked us to rebel against our Church. No, rather she has constantly urged us in approved apparitions to pray. So that is what I do as I see the turmoil, I do what Our Lady has asked us, because I'm consecrated to her and to her Son's Sacred Heart so I trust her, I trust God has got this, so I pick up my rosary and I pray, every day for our Church, our Holy Father, our Cardinals, Bishops, and Priests because I trust her and I trust God And I trust our Saints to intercede on our behalf and answer our prayers, not answer angry cries of outrage

 

Yes, I pray and sacrifice constantly for the conversion and salvation of this pope, and that if he will not convert he be confounded.

No where do Marian prophecies tell us to be silent in the face of error, for such would violate 2000 years of teaching of the Church.


Canon 212

§1. Conscious of their own responsibility, the Christian faithful are bound to follow with Christian obedience those things which the sacred pastors, inasmuch as they represent Christ, declare as teachers of the faith or establish as rulers of the Church.

2. The Christian faithful are free to make known to the pastors of the Church their needs, especially spiritual ones, and their desires.

3. According to the knowledge, competence, and prestige which they possess, they have the right and even at times the duty to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church and to make their opinion known to the rest of the Christian faithful, without prejudice to the integrity of faith and morals, with reverence toward their pastors, and attentive to common advantage and the dignity of persons.

 

Because each of us are unique individuals created by our Father, we will express ourselves and in turn interpret each other in varying ways. I realize there are those who read and interpret @BrianK as "angry", but I truly read it as righteous anger. Jesus did not stand idly by as the money changers defiled the temple, nor did he stand there and gently try to persuade them that perhaps it would be better to conduct their business outside. No, he became "angry", turned over the tables and would not allow anyone to carry anything through the temple (Mark 11:15-19). I view him as a leader personality, and some personalities conflict naturally with this. For more information I suggest reading "The Temperment God Gave You" by Art & Laraine Bennett. His leader personality is inflamed with righteous anger regarding the failings of those in the Church who should be leading us in truth, but are failing in this regard terribly.
"Therefore, putting away falsehood, let everyone speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another. Be angry, but do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and give no opportunity to the devil. Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his hands, so that he may be able to give to those in need. Let no evil talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for edifying, as fits the occasion, that it may impart grace to those who hear." Ephesians 4:25-29

Sometimes I think the problem stems from differences of opinion (in part also due to personality type differences) as to what is considered "edifying" and what is considered "evil talk." We are living in an evil time indeed as the storm continues to swirl, and should try to bear with one another through it. There are only so many Catholics in the world who are informed of what is going on and who have read prophesies referring to this time - we should be grateful we have each other to communicate and, occasionally, "vent" our righteous anger. Always in love, and because of love. We would not be here otherwise

 

Yes!

God Bless

 

Oh dear, I find it impossible to avoid responding to this comparison of Brian's anger with that of Jesus in this thread of all threads!

This quote is from a post Brian added to this thread and at least one other:

Again error has no rights in the Catholic world, and there's no such thing as "free speech" because eternal souls are at stake and a truly Catholic forum requires vigilance and back bone in the face or error and propaganda.
​

Error according to who? To Brian of course! He will of course say 'according to the Church' - unfortunately as interpreted by Brian. Brian's total belief in his own 'rightness' and freedom from error is at the heart of his mistaken view of Pope Francis and the Church and of his unfortunate treatment of those who do not share his beliefs. For Brian, anyone who loves and follows the Holy Father and promotes his guidance 'has no rights in the Catholic world'. Am I being uncharitable in suggesting a significant degree of arrogance in the quote?

 

Yep. IMHO ;-)

https://www.ewtn.com/library/DOCTRINE/RELLIB.TXT


Gregory XVI, in "Mirari vos" of August 15, 1832 DS 2730:

"We now continue with a most fertile cause of evils by which we
deplore that the Church at present is being afflicted, that is,
indifferentism, or that evil opinion....that by any profession
of faith whatsoever, the eternal salvation of the soul can be
attained, if morals are kept to the norm of the right and
good.... And from this must putrid font of indifferentism flows
that absurd and erroneous view or rather insanity, that liberty
of conscience should be asserted and claimed for just anyone."

COMMENTS: The first sentence merely means that it does make a difference
objectively what faith one professes. But it does not mean that all
Protestants are certainly damned - that would be the error of Feeney.
Rather, one may be saved not by just any profession of faith, but in spite
of a wrong one. Even Pius IX, famed for his strong words against
indifferentism,insisted that "God...in His supreme goodness and clemency by
no means allows anyone to be punished with eternal punishments who does not
have the guilt of voluntary fault." ("Quanto conficiamur maerore," Aug 10,
1863: DS 2966).

The second sentence merely rejects the idea that one has a right to be in
error. A right is a claim, ultimately coming from God, to have, to do, or
to call for something. God surely gives no one a claim to be wrong. Vatican
II, as we shall see, merely asserts one has a right not to be put in prison
etc. for being wrong.

 

Please! Please! ban me and close my account, I've had enough of this heretical evil claptrap

 

Actually David, Brian reminds me more of St. Jerome, who was famous for his anger and temper, and frequently had spats with St Augustine:
"Jerome was a strong, outspoken man. He had the virtues and the unpleasant fruits of being a fearless critic and all the usual moral problems of a man. He was, as someone has said, no admirer of moderation whether in virtue or against evil. He was swift to anger, but also swift to feel remorse, even more severe on his own shortcomings than on those of others. A pope is said to have remarked, on seeing a picture of Jerome striking his breast with a stone, “You do well to carry that stone, for without it the Church would never have canonized you” (Butler’s Lives of the Saints).

https://www.franciscanmedia.org/saint-jerome/

The following is by Fr George Rutler:
"Jesus did not appoint the brothers James and John apostles in spite of their temper but because of it. These "Bonaerges" (Sons of Thunder) had wanted to bring fire down on the rude Samaritans. Jesus knew that such anger, if harnessed, could become "righteous." There is a difference between using temper and losing temper, as there is between oil for energy and the Gulf oil spill. Anger rightly used and not lost becomes strength. James became the first apostle to offer his life serenely for the Lord, and John in his maturity wrote, "Little children love one another."

The risen Christ converted St. Paul's destructive wrath on the Damascus road. Later, the Apostle would warn the Galatians that their uncontrolled temper is a "work of the flesh." St. Jerome's letters to St. Augustine show how hard it was for him to control his tongue and pen, and the sun often went down upon the wrath of the Irish missionary Columba. No saint, naturally placid or aggressive, replaced anger with the opposite extreme of timidity. "God has not given us a spirit of timidity but a spirit of power and love and self-control" (2 Timothy 1:7).

The cure for both sinful anger and sinful timidity is the virtue of courage. St. John Chrysostom wrote to Timotheus: "For if the wrath of God were a passion, one might well despair of being unable to quench the flame which he had kindled by so many evil doings; but since the Divine nature is passionless, even if He punishes, even if He takes vengeance, He does this not with wrath, but with tender care, and much loving-kindness; wherefore it behooves us to be of much good courage, and to trust in the power of repentance."

Timidity disguised as charity can do more harm than anger, and the conceit that evil will melt away by ignoring it would be like Captain Smith on the Titanic saying, "Iceberg? What iceberg?" St. Augustine said, "God does not need my lie." St. John Fisher, speaking as the only one of his country's bishops who was a true shepherd, lamented: "The fort is betrayed even of them that should have defended it." Exactly four hundred years later, Churchill would say, "An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last."

St. Alphonsus Liguori was not timid when he counseled: "Even when correcting faults, superiors should be kind." But his kindness was in fact the engine of his zeal to "admonish sinners," which is the first of the Seven Spiritual Works of Mercy. Conversely, St. Leo confronting Attila the Hun, St. Joan of Arc trying to make a man of her pathetic king, and Blessed Jerzy Popieluszko staring down the Communists, were not foolhardy in their assertiveness. Their strength came not from Anger Management Therapy but from Christ whose very wrath is merciful.

http://www.catholiceducation.org/en...ter/the-sin-of-anger-the-sin-of-timidity.html

 

Wow, Divine Mercy. May be you should change your name to Divine Wisdom. What a wonderful analysis of righteous anger. Just another reason I like this blog so much. The quality here is outstanding. Every day I am edified. Wonderful.

 

Just for my own information but between us only, reading some of your comments and as you probably know, Quis ut Deus main goal was to Protect the Eucharist so de facto the Church, thank you.

 

I daily pray for all here and their family's- but I am sad to see the new face of this forum be someone who appearsas far to the other extreme in his anger and judgement as those for whom he wants to ban. I feel there are others who could fill this important role without so much vehemence and anger bubbling over. I apologize because I do not know you but it seems as if as many souls could be turned away by this extreme as well. Prayers for all.