Yes, those words about Sensus Fidei say it all. In the time of the Arian heresy when Athanasius nearly stood alone, it was the people themselves, the lay people, simple but very Catholic who demanded orthodoxy and it was the laity that saved the Church with St. Athanasius' leadership. At the time he was derided and condemned and ridiculed and even exiled because he spoke in season and out of season, the truth. He called out arianism for what it was. He was just about the only churchman who did. Like St. Thomas More, he is a man for all seasons too. A study of history, especially the history of the Church always brings balance. There's nothing new under the sun. Same deceptions, different disguises. Cardinal Newman has some wonderful writings on this point.
Suppose for a moment you knew and had information regarding a deadly virus that could kill millions of people all round the world. Suppose again you knew that the regularity authorities and media were ignoring or burying the issue. Clearly you would have a moral duty to headline the issue so that people could take whatever steps they could to protect themselves and initiate action to control the infection. If people genuinely believe (rightly or wrongly) that there is a very grave problem in the Vatican that could lead to the lose of souls of ten of millions of Catholic throughout the world through the virus of Apostasy and Heresy and that there is an institutionalised cover up of the problem then clearly they would have a duty to bring it to peoples attention. We have a present situation were Cardinals, Bishops, priests top theologians and millions of ordinary Catholic lay folk have indicated that yes there is indeed such a grave problem. Indeed Catholic Prophecy from Fatima onwards had indicated that such a difficulty would indeed arise. But there seems to be a counter argument that it is not, 'Nice' , for Catholics to ask questions. That Jesus and Mary would not like it. That is not loyal or obedient , that basically it is not a sweet thing to be doing. Very similiar arguments were put to the Faithful during the Child Abuse crisis. That, basically if you are a , 'Good' Catholic you put up and shut up. With Our Lady at least I have never found her in my personal life to counsel me to put up and shut up about the evils around me. Although , yes, I have found her to be sweet and gentle and kind and loving, I have also found her to be hard as nails and tough as an old boot, ready to go right on in kicking and screaming and biting for the sake of her children. Or to put it another way, Mary is a warrior and a General ..and as the demons know so well someone not to be messed about with. So when I hear people telling me , 'Mary would not like this , she would want us to put up and shut up', I can only say this is not the tough as nails Mary I encounter in prayer. I am sorry but there is indeed a kind of false Marian spirituality that seeks to cut our collective nuts off. Does this sound like a woman who is advising us to crawl back in our boxes? Song of Solomon 6:10 Mutual Delight …9But my dove, my perfect one, is unique: She is her mother's only daughter; She is the pure child of the one who bore her. The maidens saw her and called her blessed, The queens and the concubines also, and they praised her, saying, 10Who is this that grows like the dawn, As beautiful as the full moon, As pure as the sun, As awesome as an army with banners?' 11"I went down to the orchard of nut trees To see the blossoms of the valley, To see whether the vine had budded Or the pomegranates had bloomed.…
OK, but I would disagree with Brian on one point in his excellent post. There are not many other forums where we can read and share on the spiritual life. I joined this forum because it took prophecy seriously and the members were all serious about their spiritual life. It is also one of the few places where one can make the consecration to Our Lady in company with others. Not many internet forums have so many people who are as mature in the spiritual life, although of course we are all at different places and can help each other. There has been a koinonia within MOG that I found nowhere else. Perhaps I don't know where else to look. We all know that there is a serious problem in Rome (I know the fear has been there sometime), but our next move should be a Lenten one - sharpening our spiritual weapons. Prayer, Scripture reading, and, yes, fasting.
I was pleased to see Brian refer to the 'Sensus Fidei'. I have often referred to it in connection with contemporary apparitions but I don't think Brian thinks much of it in that connection In connection with the current problems surrounding Amoris Laetitiae and Pope Francis, I rather doubt the people follow Brian or your views on these matters. The 'traditionalist' standpoint on these matters are held by a significant number of people here on the internet but as for the people of faith generally, I feel they are firmly supportive of the Holy Father.
This is exactly the point. Mary does not bend over to the devil and his lies that are contrary to the Divine Will or the Divine Law. If Mary gave up the fight against the devil and his lies all her children that Jesus put under her mantle would succumb to eternal death. And so it is with the heresy that is being proposed today. It is a lie born in hell that no one at any any period in history would have dared suggest, let alone encourage. This lie will take many to perdition and the best the pope and his followers can provide in their defense of changing doctrine is to call the faithful Pharisees. Galatians 1:8 [6] I wonder that you are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ, unto another gospel. [7] Which is not another, only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. [8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. [9] As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema. [10] For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? If I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
Your argument about the silence of child abuse by clergy is spot on. Folks didn't want to cause church scandal and said nothing. Clerics who were informed said nothing, even law enforcement keep mum because they were "religious".... And that is precisely why they got away with it for so long. Right is right and wrong is wrong....
I will highlight example given by Padraig. If you knew... The whole issue at this point is that all your arguments are speculation. That is why the attacks can be evil. You can say I think or I believe. But your lead horse is stating in clarity that he knows and everyone else is in error. That is wrong.
'' ...all your arguments are speculation'' But you have been buried in evidence. Right up and over your head in evidence. I will accept logical sane arguments. But I cannot follow your reasoning. I am starting to wonder if you are a troll?
Love this! Remember the old insult when we were children? "Ahhh, yet mother wears combat boots!" Well....yeah. She does. Thank God. The image of Our Blessed Lady kicking in a door is just the best thing to start my morning. thanks Padraig.
Was it you ,Fallen Saint that suggested the recent Poll was tampered with ? mmm I am seriously considering giving you the old heave ho. I smell a troll.
Yes Fatima. This is the essential crux of the matter. Clear. Unvarnished. Unspun. No nuance. Just truth. And a warning.
Hmmmmm. As Arte Johnson used to say on the old Laugh In show..."verrrrrry inter-esting." (I know I'm dating myself here if I can even remember Laugh In)
There is no reasoning there Padraig. It is just the Ostrich solution. We have been buried in signs. It is actually totally beyond me how anyone who is paying any amount of attention can't see what is going on. I can understand them not wanting to speak or or say anything, but to know Church teaching and to have access to all of this prophecy and not even see a problem? I am just dumbfounded.
Of course the thread about the Church should stay open. Everyone should be allowed to express his/her opinion. But could this be done in a more cautious and charitable manner towards the Pope and also towards the persons who do not agree with those who criticize the Pope ? Is that so difficult ?
Yes Elisa. Thank you. There are things to know about what is going on in the Church right now. We are headed into the final battle between good and evil. Every day important things are happening. It is easy to see how people can get upset at others over these issues. They lie at the very heart of our faith. I do this myself too and I am working on it. We all just need to strive to be more charitable in the discussion, especially where Church prelates are involved.
I am angry, rightfully so. You mess with my Faith, you become my enemy, even if you're supposedly the pope. Yes, I do pray for my enemies, but I will fight to the death to defend the orthodox teachings of the Catholic faith, even if that means publicly opposing a pope! I stopped owing him obedience when and where he promoted heresy; as far as I'm concerned it's no longer worthy of debate and we have more important issues to handle now, which is the purpose of the new subforum. If you want to endlessly debate whether this pope has or can promote error, do it on the main forum. On this forum it's a given that he is in error and we have to figure out how to deal with it. Right now I personally have no choice but to recognize him as my (heterodox!) pope but I strongly suspect that when the Church's history of this time is finally written, he will be listed among the anti-popes, and they will wonder why WE did NOT more vocally oppose him.
Brian I understand your anger, but don't let it drift too far. Thinking someone is is error, etc. is one thing, but I do not think you should think of any Pope as your enemy There can be a thin line between righteous anger and personal anger. Remember charity. Think of how much diabolical disorientation the poor man is subject to. If you are going to fight, fight the the error, not the person.
Brian, please be careful here. I am not exactly sure what you meant by this. We owe all of the Church hierarchy our obedience except in any specific errors they may try to teach or commands that may lead us to sin. Just clarifying this as it could lead to serious error for anyone who does not know any better.
We know that Jesus knew in advance that He would be betrayed by Judas. Jesus also knew that Judas was not honoust. But Jesus remained kind with him and instructed his apostles to do the same. If you think the Pope is betraying us, what do you think Jesus would tell you to do ? Oppose him ? Like the apostles did towards Judas ? You write: "you mess with my Faith". Is my faith not the same as yours ? Myself, I have to speak out soo many times towards modern priests, towards faithful because they do not follow anymore the orthodox teachings of the Catholic faith. But I try to do it in a discrete way and without hurting them which will prevent them from coming back on the straight path. So, do I become your ennemi because I try to speak out without agression ? But perhaps I misunderstood, and is your ennemi only the Pope. Instead of all these discussions, we could have prayed many rosaries....
