So, what would you have the Pope do? Declare war on China and send the Swiss Guard to fight it? The Cardinal wasn't charged with standing up for freedom of religion. The case is a civil one. According to one of the news reports linked in a previous post, Cardinal Zen said that his case should not be linked with religious freedom and that he has not seen any erosion of religious freedom in Hong Kong. Aren't the Cardinal's own words good enough for you? There's another charge pending against the Cardinal. I'm confident that the Vatican's diplomatic service are working on behalf of the Cardinal. Pope Francis has given us all plenty of reason to criticise him. This isn't one of them. It's easy for Phil Lawlor and Taylor Marshall to stir the pot in the US. For Cardinal Zen's sake, I'm glad that they aren't Vatican diplomats.
It would not be advisable to declare war on China because the church never did that against the ussr when the communist empire persecuted Christians; but Catholics must cherish a society in which bishops are ordained without any government interference; and that the gospel of Christ be preached free from any alteration in its form and essence.
CP WORLD | SUNDAY, SEPTEMBER 27, 2020 Chinese textbook rewrites Bible, claims Jesus stoned woman to death By Anugrah Kumar, Christian Post Contributor A villager climbs up the steps toward a cross near a Catholic church on the outskirts of Taiyuan, North China's Shanxi province, December 24, 2016. | REUTERS/Jason Lee A communist textbook that's being used in Chinese schools falsifies the biblical account found in John 8:3–11. The textbook claims that Jesus murdered the woman who was found in adultery and said He, too, is a sinner. The textbook, published by the government-run University of Electronic Science and Technology Press, states: “The crowd wanted to stone the woman to death as per their law. But Jesus said, ‘Let the one who has never sinned throw the first stone.’ Hearing this, they slipped away one by one. When the crowd disappeared, Jesus stoned the sinner to death, saying, ‘I too am a sinner. But if the law could only be executed by men without blemish, the law would be dead.’” Catholics in mainland China are distressed about the distortion of the biblical account, reports UCA News. “I want everyone to know that the Chinese Communist Party has always tried to distort the history of the Church, to slander our Church, and to make people hate our Church,” a parishioner who uploaded the textbook on social media was quoted as saying in his post. Another Catholic in mainland China, who was identified only as Paul, was quoted as saying, “The same pattern has been repeated every year but the Church has never fought back or received the respect and apology it deserves.” The news of the distortion of the Bible in the Chinese textbook comes as the Vatican and China are expected to renew a deal on the appointment of Catholic bishops in China. The United States has advised Pope Francis against it due to the severe violation of human rights and religious freedom in the communist country. Bitter Winter, a magazine that reports on religious liberty and human rights in China, noted the subtle objective behind manipulating the textbook. “The story teaches that the law and the (Chinese Communist) Party are good and pure, and transcend the impure human beings who happen to represent them. Even if the officers are corrupted, their decision should be accepted—because, honest or corrupted, they represent the Party, and the Party’s law should never be questioned,” the magazine writes. Here’s what John 8:3–11 says in the Bible: “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, ‘Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law, Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now, what do you say?’ They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. “But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, ‘Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.’ Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. “At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, ‘Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?’ “‘No one, sir,’ she said. “‘Then neither do I condemn you,’ Jesus declared. ‘Go now and leave your life of sin.’” The magazine reported earlier that children were also being taught to oppose religion, encouraged to question the beliefs of family members and report those closest to them to authorities. China has been cracking down on underground churches and Christian activists for years. In 2015, more than 1,000 crosses were removed from church roofs and entire church buildings were destroyed across the Zhejiang province. The Chinese government continued its campaign against Christianity during the country’s coronavirus outbreak by destroying crosses and demolishing a church while people were on lockdown. More than 60 million Christians live in China, at least half of whom worship in unregistered or so-called illegal underground churches. China is ranked as one of the worst countries in the world when it comes to the persecution of Christians, according to Open Doors USA’s World Watch List. https://www.christianpost.com/news/...bible-claims-jesus-stoned-woman-to-death.html
The History of Persecution teaches us that the more the Church is suppressed the more it grows. We saw this so well In Ireland where Catholics and the Church were very violently and bitterly suppressed for centuries. Because of this the Church from Ireland helped spread all over the world. It will be the same with China . I see there are protests all over the country at the minute over their crazy lock downs. A Judgment on the Satanic wizened old Communists who rule the place with a very Iron Hand. Our Lady of Sheshen, Queen of China , pray for us.
Yes. All you say here is correct. What's wrong is criticising the Pope for not using megaphone diplomacy on behalf of Cardinal Zen in this case, especially when the Cardinal himself has said that the case is not one of freedom of religion. Were the Pope to do that, he would hand the Chinese authorities an excuse to declare an outright ban on Catholicism in China and expel missionaries. This case is a civil matter. Quiet diplomacy is the correct approach.
Whatever, What irks me primarily about Pope Francis in regard to China is that, unlike Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI who supported as best they could the Catholic underground Church in China, Pope Francis has encouraged the underground Church members to join the Catholic Patriotic Church in China to promote unity, a church which removes crucifixes and replaces them with portraits of President Xi, which is subservient to government policies which do not allow Catholic Chinese under 18-yrs-of-age to attend the Holy Sacrifice nor receive catechesis, and which alters the content of Holy Scripture. The government still is in the process of destroying churches and pilgrimage sites. The document below is well-written and accents hopefulness, but the level of naivety it contains boggles the mind! Can Rome really be that blind? https://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/en/bollettino/pubblico/2018/09/26/180926b.html Lord have Mercy!
Mario, The reservations I expressed on this thread are specific to the Pope's failure to overtly intervene in the civil case against Cardinal Zen in Hong Kong. The Catholic Church is not the religious wing of any government or political movement. Some American conservatives seem to want to hijack the Church for their own political (and geopolitical) agenda. That approach isn't peculiar to Americans or to conservatism. There are indications that leftist groups have attempted to use the Church for their agenda, especially in Latin America. It's wrong for either left or right to use the Church (or its NGOs) for political reasons. Using Cardinal Zen's case to take a swipe at the Pope is petty, unfair and smacks more of political rather than religious motivations, unless that religion is democracy. We're all beginning to see that democracy is no guarantor of religious freedom. Democracy is probably the best system around today but seeing it implemented throughout the world is not the Church's mission. The Vatican is an independent country and the Pope is its Head of State. Communism is the accepted form of government by the majority in China. The Cardinal has said that this is not a case of religious freedom and that religious freedom has not been eroded in Hong Kong. Were the Vatican to intervene in this, which is an internal Chinese matter, the Chinese government could rightly frame it as foreign government interference in China and Cardinal Zen's links to the protest movement could be portrayed in China as an act of subversion. I was taught as a child by a very holy nun that we Catholics should obey the lawful government. An innocent child, I was shocked when Sr. told us that the then government in Communist Russia was the lawful government. I'm beginning now to better understand the wisdom of rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar's. The early Christians are our example. Rome wasn't converted by protest movements.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/cardinal-zens-conviction-shows-that-no-one-is-safe-in-hong-kong/ The Communist leaders of China hate Christ and Christians. They are anti-Christ zealots. The epitome of an evil regime.
Your statement is misleading. The point here is not Hong Kong. It’s China. The current pope has betrayed millions of Catholics and Christians by failing to speak out against the tyrannical Chinese government and actually endorsing their policies. The Pope Abandons Cardinal Zen As Hong Kong puts the bishop on trial, Francis still offers no support. By William McGurn Sept. 19, 2022 at 5:06 pm ET 363 WSJ Opinion: The Vatican’s Silence Over Jimmy Lai and China YOU MAY ALSO LIKE Main Street: Hong Kong’s Jimmy Lai goes to jail—and Pope Francis says nothing (12/07/20). Images: Reuters/Zuma Press Composite: Mark Kelly It was a Saturday morning in July 1997, one week after Hong Kong was handed back to China. Cardinal Joseph Zen was waiting inside the Catholic Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception, all smiles. He was there to baptize his friend and the founder of Apple Daily, Jimmy Lai. I was there as Jimmy’s godfather. We were a happy little band that day. But today, 25 years later, Jimmy has been imprisoned. And 90-year old Cardinal Zen, who was arrested in May by national-security police, is about to be put on trial. The trial of the cardinal and five others involved with the now-defunct 612 Humanitarian Relief Fund was supposed to start Monday but was postponed until at least Wednesday because the judge came down with Covid. The 612 fund was set up to help pay legal costs for those arrested in the 2019-20 pro-democracy demonstrations. Prosecutors claim the fund wasn’t registered properly under Hong Kong’s Societies Ordinance—a law frequently used against triads, or secret societies. Conviction carries a fine of about $1,300. Advertisement - Scroll to Continue One question is whether the authorities will be satisfied with a fine. Originally the defendants were arrested for collusion with foreign forces, which can carry a life sentence. A guilty finding would feed a narrative that these people were fundraising illegally to undermine China. https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-po...ocracy-sino-vatican-accord-prison-11663616756
Thank you for this article Luan it really shows the horrors that come from antichrist regimes, as indicated by the blasphemous twisting of the word of God in John 8. Evil reigns when good men do nothing. Lord have mercy
Not misleading at all. To say that the Pope has done nothing to help Cardinal Zen is malicious and probably slanderous. Do you or the authors you quote know that the Vatican hasn't been advocating behind the scenes on behalf of the Cardinal? If so, give us the proof. If not, where is the charity in your criticism? I repeat: If the Church were to use megaphone diplomacy (as appears to be the wish of the Pope's detractors) in this case, it would very likely result in the original charges being reinstated, a heavier sentence for Cardinal Zen, and most likely an outright ban on Catholicism in all of China, putting at risk the potential conversion of hundreds of millions of Chinese souls. Are you and the people you are following absolutely sure that the secular democracy movement in Hong Kong is being led by the Holy Spirit and that Christ's Vicar on Earth is its enemy? Really?
Hi Whatever, I don't believe the the holy teaching sister who taught you as a child was correct in her outlook of what defines obeying a lawfully elected government. If what she expressed was that a lawfully elected government had to be obeyed by its citizens in all things civil then that could be correct; however, if a government gives immoral directives and passes laws that contradict the moral laws of God than this holy Sr is incorrect, imo. Governments are not above the law of God. China had the one child policy for many years (I think that changed to 2 children a few years ago) but imagine the abortions and infanticide that have occurred in that nation over many decades, additionally the political imprisonment and torture of many innocent souls over decades just to name two unjust policies/laws. Juan Diego of Guadalupe was like the early Christians that are our example, and Our Lady used him, to convert the Aztecs from their child sacrificing ways. I believe if we are to obey the lawfully elected government without engaging our conscience than that makes the Nuremberg trials null and void because Hitler was lawfully elected by the German people and the German people were just following his orders. Jesus said "give to Caesar what is Caesar's" but He continued in the same sentence "and to God the things that are God's.”
In fairness, Pope Pius XII also faced accusations of doing nothing in the face of evil. The difference is that Pope Francis has scandalised the faithful with his silence, to take one example, on that blasphemous mockery of a crucifix presented to him by the communist president of Bolivia, an occasion that represented no imminent threat to anyone if he had chosen to reject this insulting object. He has remained silent when one prominent churchman under his authority described communism, if I paraphrase correctly, as the true Christianity. Despite all this, we must give him the benefit of the doubt for now, on all of this until we become fully cognisant of all the facts. Unfortunately, it is difficult to have the same trust in Pope Francis, the pachamama pope, as it was in Pope Pius XII.
Cardinal Zen: 'Parolin manipulates the pope,' and Vatican's China policy is 'immoral' https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ca...the-pope-and-vaticans-china-policy-is-immoral
Whatever, You make a cogent argument, but I believe it fails to take in the particulars of the modern scenario. First, Rome persecuted the Church without attempting infiltration. Rome simply saw the Church as presenting an alternative to the gods of Rome that left no room for compromise; it was Christ and no one else. Thus Rome, whose government and system of worship were intertwined to provide mutual support, persecuted the renegade religion. It is ironic that Constantine eventually sought to ally himself with the Church out of respect for its enduring quality. China is a different animal. Under Mao, China, at first, sought like Rome to exterminate the Church in similar fashion. But the Catholic Church went underground to survive, and the Popes supported them in this scenario. China, in response, decided to form a counterfeit church, in an attempt to lure as many Catholics out of hiding. They did this without letting up on their persecution of the underground Church which continued to be supported by the Vatican. So up until 2012, the Popes and underground Church refused to be affiliated with the Patriotic Church which is the religious wing of the Chinese government. In response, what Francis has done is to do what he likes best, dialogue, and that with an enemy. We Catholics are left in the dark as to the terms of the resulting agreement, but the consequences to date are certainly not favorable. Now to the case of Cardinal Zen. He is a quiet man who mourns the plight of Catholics in China and the plight of the Chinese in Hong Kong, who are being oppressed by a Regime who violated the terms of an international treaty with Great Britain upon assumption of control. He does what he can and as a result is under arrest by the intolerant government who formulates law according to their whim. For instance, what was the agreement with Hong Kong? The 1984 Sino-British Joint Declaration had set the conditions under which Hong Kong was to be transferred, with China agreeing to maintain existing structures of government and economy under a principle of "one country, two systems" for a period of 50 years. The Chinese have obviously lost their ability to count. And so Cardinal Zen has at times attempted various means of working for justice in Hong Kong ruled by a government that ignores agreements and changes "the rules" at their leisure. Whatever, I ask you to recall what I expressed in post #17. Embedded in that post is a quote of Pius XII who condemned the Communist Hungarian regime for their trial of Cardinal Mindzenty. Was he meddling in Hungary's governmental activities? At what point will Pope Francis speak out against the suppression of the Chinese Patriotic Church in its refusal to allow Catholics to live their Faith? At what point should Pope Francis speak out as a new security law in Hong Kong is being utilized to stifle resistance by the likes of Cardinal Zen?
With respect, Josephite, (and I mean that because you are among those whose opinions I most respect on this forum) the sister didn't say "lawfully elected". She said the lawful government. Many lawful governments are not elected. The kind of democracy we have now is relatively recent and the democratic system varies from country to country. Henry Viii was the lawful ruler of England yet he was a murderous, adulterous lecher. St. Thomas Moore went to his death proclaiming himself a loyal subject of the same Henry who had him executed. Can anyone here give me the definition of a lawful government? And who defines it? Some Western power? Jesus told Pilate that he would have no power over Jesus had the Father not given it. So, Pilate's power (and presumably Caesar's by extension) came from God. Caesar was nobody's friend. And, as you pointed out, Hitler headed a lawful government in a democracy. So, we must obey the lawful government, which need not be democratically elected. We are not obliged to obey unjust laws. Was the law allegedly broken by Cardinal Zen an unjust law? How it is used by Hong Kong authorities is irrelevant (in my opinion) to whether or not the law itself is unjust. Any just law can be abused, as happened when St. Thomas Moore was executed (wasn't it for treason?). I don't know all the details of Cardinal Zen's case but I think it more likely than not that the Cardinal didn't deliberately break the law. Perhaps he wasn't fully conversant with it, which would amount to ignorance of the law. If that's the case, I know of no country in the world where ignorance of the law is an acceptable defence. Yes, render unto God the things that are God's. Democracy is a civil invention. I think that we need to be careful of conflating human and civil rights. Human rights come from God and nobody has the authority to overturn them (e.g. direct abortion will always be murder no matter how many laws say otherwise). Civil laws are man made which can be and often are changed by man. The democracy movement in Hong Kong may well be a good thing (it can't be so bad if Cardinal Zen is associated with it) but it's not intrinsic to the Faith. I appreciate and have read all the responses to my assertion that criticism of Pope Francis in this specific case is unfair. While I understand and share all your dislike of Communism and the Chinese government, I have read nothing to ease my suspicion that the Cardinal Zen trial is being used as a stick to beat Pope Francis. I also remain suspicious that the wellbeing of Cardinal Zen is not the top priority of some of the Pope's critics on this. When I say that, I'm not referring to anyone on this forum. Some of the more high profile critics are very well educated, well read and very intelligent. I'm not well educated, not well read and have probably average intelligence. If I can see the dangers for Cardinal Zen, Catholics in China and the Church's mission there should the Pope make an international issue of this, I find it hard to believe that the Pope's high profile critics can't see it too. Maybe we should all let the Pope be Pope and give him the occasional break from criticism especially on matters where we can't possibly know all the details. That said, I'll probably be back next week and be the loudest critic. Dear God, please instil in me the understanding that the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God, and forgive my readiness to criticise those You have placed in authority over me.
All those things irk me too, but in this specific case, I believe that the Pope is being subjected to unfair criticism (see my response to Josephite). I'm sorry for having been a nuisance on this thread. I just felt that I had an obligation to speak out against what I truly believe to be unjust criticism on this issue.
Actually, Whatever, true friends are not those who agree about everything, but those who are willing to listen in spite of disagreeing. Pax Christi! Our considerations are sincerely held convictions which ought not be in direct violation of any commandment; they're not absolute judgments.
