From a recent messages from our Blessed Mother to Luz de Maria in reference to the confusion we are witnessing. 7/24/16 "The devil has succeeded in making evil and discord enter the Church of My Son. The aim of the devil is to divide the Church of My Son, to fracture it in order to facilitate its possession of the Church and lead it to schism". 7/24/16 Children of My Immaculate Heart, Humanity finds itself in confusion; you ask one another what to believe and in what to believe. This way of working and acting is not in accordance with the Divine Will set out in the Law of God: in the Commandments, which are non-transferable, unchangeable and inalterable. They are the Eternal Will of the Father in order that His children do not enter into confusion and clearly remain within Love, fulfillment and practice, obeying the Divine Will. I had mentioned to you that uncertainty would be the nightmare of the People of My Son, and thus you are living it. Terrorist acts are occurring with greater frequency, the aim is to frighten, to create chaos and to lead man to impatience and bewilderment. I ASK YOU TO NOT DOUBT, BUT TO STRENGTHEN YOUR FAITH IN EACH EXPLANATION OF THIS WORD OF MY SON.
Why wrong...they are both evil. Keep attacking the Pope...i will continue to defend. If the day comes when the Pope actually goes against his petrine ministry. Then i will clearly state my reasons to remove myself from the Catholic Church and move on. But for those that have abandoned the Holy Father, continue to bash the Pope and try to pull Catholics away from the church. May God forgive you. b a
There have been bad Popes throughout Church history. This is nothing new: It is perfectly normal to be critical of any Church authority when their own words and actions open themselves to such criticism. By the way, who here has abandoned the Holy Father? That's quite a serious charge for you to make.
Heresy and Heritc means to abandon the Holy Father and the Catholic Church. This has been confirmed by one member of this forum and he continues to try to lead others away. I am for debate and discussion...just like Our Holy Father. He invites all extremes to the discussions. That is the Christian way. Some members here cannot discuss but continue to bash and lead Catholics away from the church. b a
July 29, 2016 message to Luz de Maria Pray, My children, pray for the Church of My Son, schism is approaching by leaps and bounds, confusion spreads and the devil is taking advantage of this instant.
I have to admit my faith is being tested. I am not going anywhere, are you? Confusion seems to be reigning and no one is stopping it. I will not blindly follow anybody. Quit judging me FS. Take the plank out of your eye and follow the pope's advise. I walk through the doors of mercy almost everyday. What do you know.
Funny you are not even in the conversation. Never really even thought of you. This is mostly against my friend Brian. And i will say my friend because we have spoken personal things in private messages. But if the shoe fits. b a
It's not sinful or wrong to point out material heresy, even if committed by a Churchman, even if that Churchman is the pope. A pope can commit heresy; this was confirmed by multiple excerpts in often infallible teaching by multiple popes. I have adequately defended my position here, using clear teachings from the Church. If someone wants to persist in this silliness, that simply using the words "material heresy" and "material heretic" means they have "abandoned the Holy Father and the Catholic Church" that is their right, to share their own opinion on the matter. But until they share Church teaching to back up their claims, it is only that, an unsubstantiated (and frankly erroneous) opinion. No matter how many times or how loudly they assert their opinion otherwise. Now if someone here was fool hearty enough to accuse this pope of "formal heresy," they might well have a point. Only the Church can accuse an individual of "formal heresy." But since the need to distinguish "material heresy" from " formal heresy" has been pointed out at some considerable length, lest the poorly catechized post VII Catholics misunderstand how its currently being (accurately and lucidly) employed, I'm not aware of ANY individual at MOG misapplying the label "formal heretic." If such an instance can be formally verified at MOG, I'd be the first one to offer my brethren filial correction. But to my knowledge, it cannot be verified, putting the lie to the scurrilous charge of "abandoning the Holy Father and the Catholic Church" or "attacking," "hating" or otherwise sinning against the pope or encouraging schism. (If someone utilized the equivocal standalone term "heresy" or "heretic" one must assume they are referring to "material heresy" as it would be grossly uncharitable to assume they have made the mistake of meaning "formal heresy" without first confirming their intent.)
on this website if you do not agree with everything the Pope does you are no longer a catholic, so the ad hominem attacks fly
One thing I have learned here is that no matter how much you bring up the Law of God and the CDF, the leftists just ignore it and throw out ad hominem attacks. I am still waiting for answers from weeks ago to my questions regarding the Popes actions. Its an exercise in futility expecting a rational and logical response.
There are exactly ZERO Church teachings that say those who employ the word "Heresy and Heritc" mean "to abandon the Holy Father and the Catholic Church." Or in any way "attack" or "hate" him or commit sin in doing so or encourage schism. At least where the proper distinction between material and formal heresy has been fully explained, as it has here. That should tell you a lot about the credibility and honestly of those who throw around such baseless charges. It's just a personal opinion, a nasty false ad hominem attack. (Believe me, I'm fairly scrupulous, and I thoroughly checked, and double checked with a friend, an excellent professor of systematic theology who should know...for reasons you can feel free to ask me via PM.)
Is it not Catholic to love God by adhering to his Laws? When did it become a crime punished by excommunication to follow Gods laws? I do not understand it, its not like Gods laws are hard to follow. The Church is already so forgiving with open arms to everyone. All it takes is a contrite heart and a confession. I wonder how it must break the Heart of Our Lord to see how we walk all over his Laws which are nothing but a gift.
So in your opinion this is the Holy Father As to “material” heresy, this happens every day, even among the most devout. Here a person misunderstands or misstates a key Catholic teaching, thereby unknowingly advancing a serious theological error. This happens when a person has a partial, distorted, or unbalanced understanding of the faith. Ok...Brian That means your understanding of the faith, the church of brian, is veritas. And our Holy Father does not understand theological truths of the Roman Catholic Church. You are insinuating formal heresy...eventhough the church is the only person that can declare that. Brian you use this platform to lead people away from the Holy Mother Church. Your posts are not to warn or critique but to cause schism. I am sorry...but i personnaly think you over do it. But that is what a forum is for...so people can share their beliefs. You continue your journey and i will continue mine. I left the first time because all this nonsense was affecting my spiritual life. I come back and its the same thing. Like i said before...if you talk the talk, walk the walk. Material Heresy is based on lack of knowledge. That is not our Holy Father...what you are insinuating is Formal Heresy with knowledge and intent. Respectfully, Brother al
Never the case... discussion and debate has happened for 2000 years and is the basis of our Catholic Tradition. But to degrade (words used to denegrate) the Holy Father. The name calling and the lack of respect is anti-christian and anti-catholic. No one would want to be treated that way...and no one should treat anyone that way. You might not like the Holy Father but you sure do have to respect him. Unless he fails as Bishop Rome and at his petrine duties... than you should respect him for the good of the church. You dont see my spiritual father Cardinal Sarah talking nonsense. He sure debates and gives his views. I have been following the African Bishops for years. My posts can confirm that...i always stated Africa will lead. But there is a fine balance between warning and debating... and actually promoting schism and denigrating Our Holy Father.
Sorrowful, Really, i don't want to lower myself to this nonsense. Brian pokes my cage because of the ramifications of his little outburst. Not for the regulars on mog but for those that stumble on to our little world. I think it is dangerous and leads people away from the church. Having said that... i enjoy debating the mystical, sin, grace, saints and "the created one". That what makes MOG interesting to me. It is spiritually enlightening. When we all get together and pray...that helps me feel part of a community, that i dont have around me in my own world. There are some very holy people on this site. If you have open ears, you will be spiritually uplifted. Do i really want to spend my time arguing...who is right on the spirituality of grace. NO. But i would love to discuss the spirituality of grace. I have spent many years studying philosophy and theology and what i have discovered is the mystical is very personal. If you want to argue the right and wrong of the spirituality of grace. Find some else. If you want to discuss grace then i would enjoy that. Like i said before...just let it go. Brother al
fallen saint, I want to thank you for the above posts. I'm not into 'liking' everything written by someone who shares a point of view but your posts relieve a strong desire to respond to the many posts against Francis which are, as you indicate, often just nonsense. I do feel that on a forum that professes to be Catholic, some kind of response to the relentless criticism of the Pope is necessary. My only additional contribution at the moment is to point out that despite all the 'noise' against the Pope on the internet, there is absolutely no indication of any significant opposition to Francis within the hierarchy.
One should remain loyal and obedient to the Pope, even if the devil incarnate occupies the papal throne. So said Saint Catherine of Siena. This does not rule out criticism of a Pope because this great saint was renowned for this. Of course, one is not likely to be Catherine of Siena standard and must thread warily but Pope Francis himself called upon us to debate openly and indeed to 'make a mess'. Personally, I have found many of the comments here, both positive and negative, helpful in getting what I consider my handle on this pope specifically, and on papal authority in general. Some may cross the line in both directions but this is inevitable.
The quote by the great Catherine of Sienna might seem hyperbole to many but it is actually what we are called to do. St Catherine is unquestionably pointing out that whatever he does, we must not attack him or try to undermine him. and yes, I agree we should be free to debate his actions and words but those who think he is making wrong decisions should always respect him both as an individual soul and as the successor of Peter.
