Theologians & Scholars Formally Request Correction of Amoris Laetitia

Why are you in this thread Joe?

You choose to defend the Pope, and that's excellent. But when people bring up points that you can't rebut you lay down a guilt trip about how everyone is attacking the Pope and causing the suffering of the Holy Family? Cut the crap Joe!

Facts are Facts, and there is nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade. I would be more than happy to see every single one of the points being made here knocked into the gutter. But so far I haven't seen any of them dismissed, and Pope Francis' comments/actions are building up.

 

I did it over the last couple days Joe... google searches aren't hard.

 

I've just got up and blow me, you're still at it.... I remember congratulating you when you first turned up on the forum that your responses would wear down even earthtoangels...

Earlier yesterday I asked you whether you meant it when you prayed at Mass the "Lord I am not worthy to receive you under my roof..." prayer, as you believed yourself to be worthy. In all your responses since then, I seem to have missed an unequivocal response from you. Do you mean it when you say those words or do you not? A simple yes or no would be appreciated as "there is nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade".

 

I already answered the question... please go back and read my posts.

 

But your answer was not a yes or a no. My question is not a trick question. But answering it with endless explanations effectively is refusing to answer.

 

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If what you report is accurate I would say that Fr Kung is very wrong. I agree he should not be a priest if he denies hell and supports euthanasia. If his beliefs are as you say they contradict Eternal Truth and the pope will not endorse them. From your telling Fr Kung sounds like he is on very thin ice. He is in for a shock when his hell goes on and on and on....everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels. He will be tossed in the flames (just as the children of Fatima saw poor souls in hell) saying "how much longer, how much longer?" Satan will not even give him the satusfaction of the answer, "Forever, didn't you hear Jesus the first time.?"

 

Pope Francis thinks no one goes to hell,Joe.

 

He may like to think that. He's only human. But he knows better.

 

He believes in Annihilation Joe.


Eugenio Scalfari: “What happens to that lost soul? Will it be punished?

Francis: “There is no punishment but the annihilation of that soul. All the others will participate in the beatitude of living in the presence of the Father.

Is that heresy Joe?

 

Yet advocate for a return of ad orientam worship, as Cardinal Saraf recently did, echoing Pope BXVI, and the Vatican is capable of publishing a "clarification" (demonstrably incorrect) within 48 hours. Strange, that.

 

Sorrowful Heart's answer is not a trick answer. Quit playing games.

All that is required of a Catholic to receive is to be in a state of sanctifying Grace, i.e., without mortal sin.

No one is "worthy" to receive Christ's Body, Bool, Soul and Divinity in the Holy Eucharist. Nonetheless they are permitted by Christ's Church to do so, provided they are not in a state of mortal sin.

If you have a problem with that, fine, but then you have a problem with the teachings of the Church, not with anyone here.

 

Yes, that too is blatant heresy. And Joe admits he believes that. I guess Joe will have to join the folks he has condemned to perdition for stating a pope can believe serious error.

 

Unlike most 'accusations' against Francis, this one has at least a good basis. I would be quite interested in knowing the precise words Pope Francis used (presumably in Italian) in his reply to Scalfari. Annihalation really means destruction and I doubt that Francis believes the soul can die or be destroyed. This matter of understanding eternity for humanity is very difficult. We simply cannot properly take in its meaning because we see everything in terms of time. We know that whether we go to heaven or hell, we CHOOSE that destination. God doesn't impose anything on us. The person who goes to hell chooses it. I can well understand how Pope Francis might deal with this problem by his comment to Scalfari but I suspect if he is ever asked to expand on his response to him, we would better understand what his full understanding is.

 

Why are you here SH?

I agree facts are facts but they are few and far between here. There are many claims of veracity but that is different from facts. Facts do not always represent the truth. How they are presented and why is of the essence.

Mac used to accuse me if being obsessed with his membership of SSPX. I am not allowed to refer to that agenda any more. But at the time it helped explain his comments.

As for laying guilt trips, I am only interested in the truth. I won't waste my time on tittle tattle. I am here primarily to defend the truth of the goodness in our Holy Father and the goodness of the Truth he proclaims. Like Francis I have no time for intrigue and gossip.

Are you here just to condemn and presecute him? You give that impression. Am I wrong?

You tell me to "cut the crap". I wish I could but you have too firm a grip on it. I do not waste my time on guilt trips. If you lot are innocent, prove it. So far the charges you have laid against the Pope are without substance or foundation. He has never ever contradicted dogma. He has never uttered anything heretical. He has never blasphemed. He has never poisoned the faith.

In a court of law motive is an important consideration. Perhaps you are of the same persuasion as Mac. Brian is a self confessed traditionslist but denies membership of SSPX. I believe him. Why are you here? Do you have any hidden agenda that directs your comments?

It may be best to end this thread but I would prefer to see it go in another direction. One that questions but does not persecute or condemn or accuse or insult or misquote or misinterpret the pope as has been done repeatedly on this forum. All those things I am accused of doing to the enemies of Francis when in fact I am only pointing out the dangers of the road they have chosen.

Scripture tells us we will be held to account for the sins of others if we do not do so after removing the logs from our own eyes.

I admit I speak from the heart but my supporters tell me that my mind is not bad either. Quite wisely they refuse to waste their time here. You will be pleased to know I am heading in that direction too.

 

"Rather fear the one who can kill both body and soul in hell". Is that heresy?

 

I have admitted no such thing. I said the pope may like to think no one goes to hell, I did not say he does like to think that nor did I say that this is what he thinks and I never said I agreed with that sentiment. Wrong on three counts, so far, Brian.

The pope, like God, does not want anyone to go to hell if it can be avoided. This time there there is clear malice in your error as once again you try to devalue and discredit my opinion. It is only charity that prevents me from calling you what you deserve.

By now you must be seriously de-sentised to the pain of being constantly wrong. The CCC is quite clear on hell. Its main pain is eternal separation from God.

But you have got me thinking. Oh no, I hear you groan. Another rant.

I know all about Gehena the fire that burned constantly outside Jerusalem to get rid of rubbish and bodies. I know that worm translates as maggot. The fire of hell was prepared for the fallen angels. It was not intended for man.

In fact Rome's chief exorcist was told by devils that they were the architects of hell. Just like we create our own hell. God's role is to consign those who die in mortal sin to their appointed place.

Otherwise they would be free to exercise their evil on the human race for all eternity. They would not go to this place of their own volition so God has to send them there. This of course is part of every exorcism - to name, bind and return to hell under the authority and by the power of God.

But it is man's own sin that leads to this end. It is only God's will that they go to hell when there is no other end available to them according to His Truth and Justice.

Hell is the only safe place for the souls of the dammed to go. Safe for humanity that is. The ultimate punishment for the ultimate sin: rejection of God's love, refusal to submit to His will, terminal pride. Jesus only really gives us one yard stick for love: "If you love me keep my word".

The fallen angels preferrred to rule in hell than to serve in heaven. That is why Jesus showed us the importance of being a servant. He did this to save our souls from the same fate as that of the devil and his followers.

They were created eternal beings. They committed the ultimate sin with full knowledge and they knew that hell - eternal separation from God -,is what they deserved. Thus they brought hell on themselves and built their city of damnation in the lake of fire.

Because they had full knowledge there was no room for repentance and therefore no question 0f forgiveness. The prayer of Jesus " Father forgive them for they know not what they do" could not be applied to them.

They could not escape the full understanding and knowledge of their guilt so their existence had to be in a state or place that sustained them in their fallen condition: hell. It had to be compatible with their nature: unforgivable and eternally fallen a nature that was totally perverted from its intended state.

I believe that hell exists Brian - sometimes in the darkest moments of my life I suspect that faith kept me alive more than a faith in heaven. Once again you misquote and misrepresent me. This time it is more like a deliberate lie to wind me up. Failed.

Contrary to your comment I have never denied that a pope can believe serious error. I said he can never teach error. Otherwise he would not be pope. And you have admitted I am correct in this. So you are wrong on four counts in the space of four lines. I do not care that I sm correct but I worry about your mind and motivation.

So there we have it the fire of hell is eternal. Like in Gehena the fire will consume the damned soul and the maggot will consume anything that remains. I have read stories of demons biting the souls of the damned. Perhaps they are trying to consume them. Talk about a bad communion - the evil spirits being sustained by the souls of the damned. This part is just my overactive imagination. This is not my version of an article of faith.

The fire is eternal and the punishment of the loss of God is eternal but is the burning punishment of hell eternal for the souls of damned humans. I will continue to believe it is. The Pope does not teach that annihilation is an article of faith.

Scalfari admitted that the text of his interview on hell was later reconstructed from memory and never had quotation marks around it. Furthermore it was never published by the Vatican. These were not the words of Pope Francis. But you knew that already Mac and Brian. There is no limit to the subversive tactics of traditionalists. By any other name they would be lies. My good and learned priest has identified traditionalists as no better than the Protestants of the reformation. Their primary target was also the pope.

Please be clear I differentiate traditionalists who have rejected the Church for many years from traditional Catholics whose number includes myself.

 

Discussing what happens to a soul after judgement? Using only a one sentence snippet to prove heresy. We have become like the cable news networks that are lookng for that sound bite to change the whole discussion.

On a better note...we are probably one of the few places on the internet that can discuss such topics.

So, here goes...a soul is perfectly judged. That means it is his/her actions that leads us to or away from God. The soul is created for perfection. We are given our lifetime on earth (long or short) to perfect our soul through the Grace of God. Some souls gravitate towards God and are given the gift of entering heaven. Even though we are not worthy (had to say it) to enter. Some souls gradually walk away from God. And as the soul walks away from God... it also walks away from its perfection. But like a scale, if one heads closer to God, the soul becomes perfect but if it walks away from God, it becomes imperfect. And at judgement the soul will become either perfectly perfect or perfectly imperfect. So know we have two different types of souls. In a spiritual sense, we can say that soul that left God has been destroyed and annihilated. Without God the soul cannot be anything. We have to understand a soul is only a soul for the purpose of reaching God. That is our gateway to the spititual. But once a soul totally leaves God (after judgement) is it still a soul? I dont think so. It is destroyed from what it should have been. It should have been perfected. That soul becomes something else. It is spiritually lacking God FOREVER. That is hell...lacking God forever. And the punishment is lacking all that is perfectly good. Those that leave God, eternity will be all that is perfectly bad.

So, i could argue, by not reaching perfection... the soul is annihilated.

Hope that helps. Is it right or wrong, who knows, but i do enjoy this topics.


May Gods Will be Done

 

If the soul is annihilated after death, how can it be reunited with the body at the General Judgement? Also, is it only the soul that is punished? What about the body? Is the body annihilated along with the soul or does it become an inanimate body left free from physical pain for all eternity?

 

Wow...the 1000 questions of the spiritual. Can one answer them perfectly...not really because they overlap. Also, we getting into the spirituality of time. The eternal moment.

But on this prayerful and beautiful Sunday morning...let's try to touch the spiritual.

The question of when the body is reunited with soul? There is some scripture that mentions this phenomenon. But my answer would be where it fits on the timeline. Maybe it does happen. But maybe in the very end of Gods plan. We loose those material bodies and become purely spiritual. And to make it interesting, maybe we become one with God. But that is another debate.

The moment we die, we enter the eternal moment. In the timeline, we die, judged and sentenced. For God..it is in the eternal moment but for us we are still in a timeline until after judgement. After, we are judged, we enter the eternal moment. But the question of why and when the body is united to soul. I don't know
Maybe it's to manifest the greatness of God and to prove to all humanity that from the beginning of time God was, is and will be. God doesn't have to prove himself but maybe for perfect judgement souls and bodies must be reunited.

My personal belief is the souls and bodies will be reunited for a brief instance. Then we enter the eternal moment. What that means and how it works. Who knows?

Very deep spiritual thoughts but things that are interesting...but might not be too important.

May Gods Will be Done

 

God created Adam with a body and a soul and saw that it was good. Why would God destroy what was good? Jesus is fully human as well as fully divine, yet Jesus lives perfectly united with the Father and Holy Spirit without losing his mortal body. Isn't that the example for us of how we will be perfectly united, body and soul, with God? Hell being the opposite of Heaven, wouldn't it be the opposite of paradise where the human body as well as the soul will know perfect happiness if the human body suffered along with the soul?

We know that the thief was judged without being reunited with his body because Jesus told him that "this day you will be with me in paradise", so the particular judgement happens upon death. The bible tells us that when Jesus comes to judge the world on the last day, the sea will give up its dead and we all will be judged. So we know when the body and soul are reunited. Yes, God is outside time. God also gave us a loose timeline in human terms.