It is true there will be a false' Pope' but not yet. The one called ,'false' will indeed be so. This is far from the one.
A very interesting perspective on the Popes words.... http://ethikapolitika.org/2013/09/27/honest-francis/
Cardinal Chaput tells a good story. He says a priest asked his congregation to put up a hand if they were uneasy about the Pope's interview and what he said. Quite a few hands went up in Church. He then asked the congregation to put up their hands if they had actually read what the Pope said. Three hands went up. I must confess to having being guilty of this myself.
I'm not at all sure about several parts of the interview (I have read it several times in full) including the part quoted below. The bit underlined is quoted triumphantly in today's Sunday Times by Andrew Sullivan a proudly active homosexual Catholic who loves much of what the Pope said in the interview but particularly this part which is totally new theology as far as I am aware. I have no idea what most of this means. Any ideas? "And all the faithful, considered as a whole, are infallible in matters of belief, and the people display this infallibilitas in credendo, this infallibility in believing, through a supernatural sense of the faith of all the people walking together. This is what I understand today as the ‘thinking with the church’ of which St. Ignatius speaks. When the dialogue among the people and the bishops and the pope goes down this road and is genuine, then it is assisted by the Holy Spirit. So this thinking with the church does not concern theologians only. Francis cautions that he’s not endorsing pure “populism.” But he’s manifestly rejecting the conventional understanding of infallibility. He interprets infallibility not as a present attribute—the rightness of what a pope or a college of cardinals decrees—but as a collective process. Together, through dialogue with the people, we get the right answer down the road. This notion of dynamic, collective infallibility presumes the fallibility of today’s popes and cardinals.
Another good commentary on the interview. It should reassure us that we have a pope who spends so much time each day in silent adoration with our Lord. http://themoynihanletters.com/from-the-desk-of/letter-90-editorial-on-popes-interview "Why did the Pope speak those words? There is an answer, and I give it in the editorial below. The answer is that Francis’s entire life is marked by a very profound encounter with Christ, and a love of Christ, which he sets at the center of his self-understanding, and of his teaching. And he did this in the interview. Francis’s life has been charcaterized by a life-long commitment, a life-long struggle, to become more Christlike. I myself have been a witness to a small part of this life. I have stayed in the Domus Santa Marta, where he resides, on occasion since his election to the papacy. Each morning after Mass, before going to breakfast, he sits alone in the pews before the Holy Sacrament, sometimes for 20, sometimes for 30 minutes. I have been there as well, in long minutes of utter silence. And each evening before dinner, after the work of the day, he returns for a long period of solitary adoration, from about 6:50 p.m. until going to dinner a little before 8 p.m. So he “bookends” his day with a time of silence with the Lord. Francis is a man whose life is in keeping with his words. He lives simply. He speaks bluntly, honestly, from the heart. He is in love with Christ, and wants all to be filled with that same love, because, in His goodness, in His beauty, in His holiness, He is worthy of love, and has loved us first. This spiritual life means the Pope would never criticize anyone who is working for a good cause, especially for the good cause of protecting innocent human life. But it also means that the Pope wishes to point beyond any and every “action” to a certain person who is to be known, and loved and served, Jesus Christ, in whom we live, and move, and have our being, because He fills that “God-shaped vacuum in the heart of every man which cannot be filled by any created thing, but only by God.” The spiritual life of Jorge Mario Bergoglio is the key to explain why he said what he said in the interview."
Don't listen to Andrew Sullivan's interpretation. Here is the rest of what Pope Francis said: "This is how it is with Mary: If you want to know who she is, you ask theologians; if you want to know how to love her, you have to ask the people. In turn, Mary loved Jesus with the heart of the people, as we read in the Magnificat. We should not even think, therefore, that ‘thinking with the church’ means only thinking with the hierarchy of the church.” Nothing new here. The Church has always recognized and appreciated the devotions and popular piety of the lay faithful. Francis goes on to say, "After a brief pause, Pope Francis emphasizes the following point, in order to avoid misunderstandings: “And, of course, we must be very careful not to think that this infallibilitas of all the faithful I am talking about in the light of Vatican II is a form of populism. No; it is the experience of ‘holy mother the hierarchical church,’ as St. Ignatius called it, the church as the people of God, pastors and people together. The church is the totality of God’s people." In other words, people like Sullivan should not be trying to twist the Pope's words to further his own personal agenda. Pope Francis has always stressed obedience to the Magisterium of the Church.
Just to clarify, below is a full direct quote from the relevant part of the interview which the Pope himself endorsed before publication including the part omitted in my initial quotation (for brevity not for distortion). This is what the Pope says that he believes and it seems to me to be a totally new 'take' on infallibility. These are not Sullivan's opinions he always did regard himself as being as infallible as the Pope but now takes this to mean that the Pope now agrees with him (and really who can blame him?): "And all the faithful, considered as a whole, are infallible in matters of belief, and the people display this infallibilitas in credendo, this infallibility in believing, through a supernatural sense of the faith of all the people walking together. This is what I understand today as the ‘thinking with the church’ of which St. Ignatius speaks. When the dialogue among the people and the bishops and the pope goes down this road and is genuine, then it is assisted by the Holy Spirit. So this thinking with the church does not concern theologians only. This is how it is with Mary: If you want to know who she is, you ask theologians; if you want to know how to love her, you have to ask the people. In turn, Mary loved Jesus with the heart of the people, as we read in the Magnificat. We should not even think, therefore, that ‘thinking with the church’ means only thinking with the hierarchy of the church.”After a brief pause, Pope Francis emphasizes the following point, in order to avoid misunderstandings: “And, of course, we must be very careful not to think that this infallibilitas of all the faithful I am talking about in the light of Vatican II is a form of populism. No; it is the experience of ‘holy mother the hierarchical church,’ as St. Ignatius called it, the church as the people of God, pastors and people together. The church is the totality of God’s people."
I don't see this as anything new. The Church is infallible in faith and morals. What is the Church? Is it just the Pope or the bishops? Francis clearly says that he is referring to all the faithful as a whole, i.e. the entire Church, not individual believers as being infallible. Who speaks for the Church, for the faithful? This is where the hierarchy comes in, the "hierarchical church" as Francis puts it. In other speeches Francis has clearly stressed obedience to the hierarchy of the Church including its teaching authority.
"And all the faithful, considered as a whole, are infallible in matters of belief....." Phew, no change to traditional teaching there then. I'm very relieved.
I think, once again, Pope Francis for some unknown reason muddy's the water of truth with unclear language. If he had said the Church doctrine is infallible, and insofar as one believes and follows the faith and moral teachings of the Church they are infallible in what they teach, this would have made his statements coherent. I remain puzzled by his language. Could it just be a bad translation? The "church" that he references is "the people of God" and we are surely not infallible. However, our faith teachings are. Why can't he say this?
It is hard to know what some people are thinking sometimes, but I think he was referring to this: 'Sensus fidei (sense of the faith), also called sensus fidelium (sense of the faithful) when exercised by the body of the faithful as a whole, is "the supernatural appreciation of faith on the part of the whole people, when, from the bishops to the last of the faithful, they manifest a universal consent in matters of faith and morals".[1] Quoting the document Lumen gentium of the Second Vatican Council, the Catechism of the Catholic Church adds: "By this appreciation of the faith, aroused and sustained by the Spirit of truth, the People of God, guided by the sacred teaching authority (Magisterium),... receives... the faith, once for all delivered to the saints... the People unfailingly adheres to this faith, penetrates it more deeply with right judgment, and applies it more fully in daily life."[2]'. He is of course (if this is what he meant) massively misapplying and stretching this so much it is bizarre. Pope Benedict condemned this kind of stretching. Often I think when I read these people's stuff, 'Life is too short'. And it really is. .http://protectthepope.com/?p=6150 ‘Today, however, it is particularly important to clarify the criteria used to distinguish the authentic sensus fidelium from its counterfeits. In fact, it is not some kind of public opinion of the Church, and it is unthinkable to mention it in order to challenge the teachings of the Magisterium, this because the sensus fidei can not grow authentically in the believer except to the extent in which he or she fully participates in the life of the Church, and this requires a responsible adherence to her Magisterium. ...…the attention that theologians must pay to sensus fidelium. It is very useful that your Commission has also focused on this issue which is of particular importance for the reflection on the faith and life of the Church. The Second Vatican Council, while confirming the specific and irreplaceable role of Magisterium, stressed, however, that the whole People of God participates in Christ’s prophetic office, thus fulfilling the inspired desire expressed by Moses, ” If only all the people of the LORD were prophets! If only the LORD would bestow his spirit on them! “(Num 11:29). The Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium thus teaches us on the subject: “The entire body of the faithful, anointed as they are by the Holy One,(111) cannot err in matters of belief. They manifest this special property by means of the whole peoples’ supernatural discernment in matters of faith when “from the Bishops down to the last of the lay faithful” they show universal agreement in matters of faith and morals. “(n. 12). This gift, the sensus fidei, constitutes in the believer a kind of supernatural instinct that has a connatural life with the same object of faith. It is a criterion for discerning whether or not a truth belongs to the deposit of the living apostolic tradition. It also has a propositional value because the Holy Spirit does not cease to speak to the Churches and lead them to the whole truth.’ Pope Benedict.
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church: 889 In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the apostles, Christ who is the Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility. By a “supernatural sense of faith” the People of God, under the guidance of the Church’s living Magisterium, “unfailingly adheres to this faith.”417 (92)
Sigh. I wish I had taken more time to study theology years ago. I get lost in a lot of this stuff. But then again when I see loads of world class theologians going head to head over things I wonder what chance I would ever have had even if I had studied? But I also liked the understanding of theology in the Eastern Sense in the growth of Word of God in the heart rather than in the head. Of true theology as being rather like Our Lady nurturing the Word of God in the Womb of Our Hearts, walking in the path of prayer. I hope I am not being anti intellectual in thinking this. I acknowledge study and learning as great, but it too has its limits.I think it is more important than ever to kneel at the Feet of Mary at the moment to ask guidance on these very deep matters.
You know I never knew this? But /I wonder then about the huge numbers of Catholics who became Protestant during the so called, 'Reformation' ; how did they, “unfailingly adheres to this faith.”? ...and where was their, “supernatural sense of faith” and their 'share' in the 'infallibility' of Christ? I am not contradicting the Cathechism, just wondering. I must ask a priest.
http://www.churchmilitant.tv/daily/?today=2013-09-30 I was aware of the concept of 'sensum fidelium' but this is exactly what worries me. According to M. Voris's latest video (link above), the majority of those, in the US, who consider themselves to be 'committed Catholics' and who would therefore certainly regard themselves as part of the 'faithful' hold the following opinions: 1. That it is not necessary to attend Mass each week. 2. That the decision to have premarital sex is a matter for the couple involved and not the Church. 3. That same sex 'marriage' is acceptable. 4. That abortion should be a decision for the pregnant woman. Etc. etc. Now these are people who consider themselves to be committed Catholics i.e. those who state that they regularly attend Mass and regard their religion as being very important/important in their lives. The majorities for ignoring Church dogma and doctrine among the remaining two categories of Catholics (moderately committed and not very committed) are, as would be expected, greater or much greater. There are, of course, plenty of clergy who agree with these 'committed Catholics'. So, if the Church decides to gather the opinions pf Catholics and act in accordance with it, everything would change and not in any good way. Some would regard the majority's opinion as 'sacred' but to change things on that basis in the Church would be undesirable to say the least.
The Church influences the world, not the world influencing the Church. Unless it is to bring about something that will enhance and bring about the 'betterment' of the Church. As in the people of God PUSHING FORWARD the someones cause for sainthood ---it is the PEOPLE who do this, not the Church. That is why so many saintly causes have died out....generations die out. THERE WILL BE A REMNANT AND WE ARE THEM. Majority will not rule. THINK SMALL.
Mac said: ↑ Pope Francis.How the Church will change.http://www.cfnews.org/page88/files/cc67e5d261736974a4d59a39a04591b0-144.htmlIf you read the comments after this article there appears to be a growing concern about what is being said. http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimm...t-evangelization-is-nonsense-8-things-to-know All I can say is... Queen of the universe, mediatrix of men to God Refuge of all our hopes,.have mercy on us..
The Pope is specifically speaking of proselytism [not evangelization] In the Church's lexicon, proselytism typically refers to conversion efforts that fail to respect the prospective convert’s freedom and dignity. High pressure tactics; telling lies about the other person’s current religion; comparing the weaknesses of another’s religious community with only the strengths of one’s own; attempting to convert children in opposition to their parents; offering worldly inducements to change one’s religious allegiance—these are what Catholics would call proselytism.
I heard a very lengthy discussion about the La Republica article on our local catholic radio Sacred Heart between Al Cresta and a Sister Flannagan. It made a ton of sense what the good Sister was saying. She was quite alarmed after hearing some of this interview and instantly went to try to decipher and translate herself the parts that concerned her and of course found real problems in the translation from Italian to English. I can't remember right now for the life of me the part that Sister was stunned by but after she translated it she noticed that there were 2 clear words left out. I wish I could remember the part. As for the part about proselytization I don't think at all he was saying not to evangalize but mearly suggesting that the way people can go about it not the best approach. He was speaking with an atheist that probably leans more to the Italian Communist Party. I am quite sure he was not going to go into this interview with the idea of beating down this person with how his beliefs are all wrong or with the ideas of evangalizing by fear of hell and damnation or throwing a bunch of gospel quotes at this person. I feel what Pope Francis was getting at is that we need to love people and get to know people and show them love and concern first and by those actions we are spreading the gospel first by living it then hopefully God will open the door needed with that individual to truly begin to spread the Word. I feel we can't go out and just preach to people and that will work but we must need to go out and live and love as Jesus did first and that will be the key to conversion. Finally a lot are getting angry about what he said about the biggest problems today being youth out of work and the elderly and if you think of it in a different manner it is the 2 biggest problems the church face. With so many youths (especially in Italy where he is giving this interview) out of work think about the much larger problems that come into the world with young people out of work: drugs, stealing, anger, violence to others, joing gangs, joining armies (especially in Africa and the Middle East), sex, abortion because they can't afford a child, etc etc. By being very specific on this one small problem look at the amount of evil and sin comes in the world. As for the elderly being so alone, or sick, or poor, I truly feel terrible for them. Here they have lived their whole lives and now at the end they spend so much time dealing with sorrow or sufferings couldn't many here at the end as they should be preparing to be with God instead turn to despair or anger and away from God because of their suffering. Stan sure is evil to attack the elderly when they are so close to achieving their reward in heaven. His cunning ways and last ditch effort could be turning many elderly away from God when they need to be as close as ever and joyful to about to be seeing Him. These are a lot of thoughts of Sister Flannigan and I for one agreed with her on this. The most important thing to remember in these interviews because there will be many more to come is that these are NOT magisterial teachings. But they sure are getting the attention of the world like never before! I think Pope Francis knows exactly what he is doing and I for one feel that it is the work of Jesus and the Holy Spirit in almost a last effort and sense of urgency for the world.
I'll admit that what the Pope said about unemployed youth and the elderly threw me for a loop. Those are definitely not what I would consider the greatest evils facing the church. Maybe the disintegration of the family, where chronic unemployment and the isolation of the elderly could play a role?? But that comment by Pope Francis, along with the following speech, did bring to mind the last verses of the book of the prophet Malachi. http://www.news.va/en/news/pope-peace-and-joy-not-perfect-organization-signs “The future of a people is right here…in the elderly and in the children,” he said. “A people who does not take care of the elderly and children has no future because it will have no memory and it will have no promise! The elderly and children are the future of a people!” Pope Francis warned that it is all too easy to shoo a child away or make them calm down with a candy or a game – or to tune out the elderly and ignore their advice with the excuse that “they’re old, poor people.” “The sign of God’s presence is this, so says the Lord: ‘Old men and old women will sit again in the squares of Jerusalem, each with a cane in hand for their age. And the squares of the city will swarm with young boys and girls playing…Playing makes us think of joy: it is the Lord’s joy. And these elderly people sitting with a cane in hand, calm: they make us think of peace. Peace and joy. This is the air of the Church!” Malachi chapter 3: Now I am sending to you Elijah the prophet, Before the day of the LORD comes, the great and terrible day; He will turn the heart of fathers to their sons, and the heart of sons to their fathers, Lest I come and strike the land with utter destruction
