I don’t understand why practising Catholics anywhere are feeling the need to use contraception when the natural method is as reliable or more so. When Humanae Vitae came out there was only the rhythm method which was crude in its understanding and not reliable. To avoid pregnancy at a time when Zika is a real threat is easy by using natural means. Rape is a different matter as continence obviously requires two people’s cooperation and rape does not ask for consent. Pope Paul would have understood this. I wonder if the current pontiff is just obtuse or perhaps is softening the way to sanctioning artificial birth control?
But did Pope Francis give a directive it was okay to use contraception by women fearing the Zika virus or was he just in a casual interview talking about it and saying "it's the lesser of two evils". I don't think Pope Francis gave any "decree" on validating its use.
Yes, do so. God forbid he might have said something contrary to your agenda. Pope Francis did not really say that. Pope Francis did not really mean that. There is a language problem. He was misquoted. There was journalistic bias. The wind was blowing from the wrong direction. He had a hang over. He was having a bad day. There was a bad internet connection. He was suffering from having a bad flight. The journalists at the press conference were all drunk.
Commenting on Zika virus, Pope Francis calls abortion ‘a human evil’ ByThe Tico Times February 18, 2016 Tiziana Fabi/AFP VATICAN CITY – Pope Francis insisted Thursday that abortion was always a crime but hinted that the Church could exceptionally relax its ban on contraception for women at risk of contracting the Zika virus. “Abortion is not a lesser evil. It is a crime,” Pope Francis said in response to a question about how best to combat the outbreak across Latin America of a virus possibly linked to birth defects. But he added: “Avoiding a pregnancy is not an absolute evil.” https://ticotimes.net/2016/02/18/commenting-on-zika-virus-pope-francis-calls-abortion-a-human-evil And this is the lesser of 2 evils discussion. Excuse me, he still called it, contraception and evil.
No he did not. He said that abortion was evil but that contraception is sometimes necessary. We are entering Alice in Wonderland Territory here. Full on Gas Lighting.
St. Francis of Assisi Prophecy: Shortly before he died in 1226, St. Francis of Assisi called together the members of his order and warned them of great tribulations that would befall the Church in the future, saying: Act bravely, my Brethren; take courage, and trust in the Lord. The time is fast approaching in which there will be great trials and afflictions; perplexities and dissensions, both spiritual and temporal, will abound; the charity of many will grow cold, and the malice of the wicked will increase. The devils will have unusual power, the immaculate purity of our Order, and of others, will be so much obscured that there will be very few Christians who will obey the true Sovereign Pontiff and the Roman Church with loyal hearts and perfect charity. At the time of this tribulation a man, not canonically elected, will be raised to the Pontificate, who, by his cunning, will endeavour to draw many into error and death. Then scandals will be multiplied, our Order will be divided, and many others will be entirely destroyed, because they will consent to error instead of opposing it. There will be such diversity of opinions and schisms among the people, the religious and the clergy, that, except those days were shortened, according to the words of the Gospel, even the elect would be led into error, were they not specially guided, amid such great confusion, by the immense mercy of God. Then our Rule and manner of life will be violently opposed by some, and terrible trials will come upon us. Those who are found faithful will receive the crown of life; but woe to those who, trusting solely in their Order, shall fall into tepidity, for they will not be able to support the temptations permitted for the proving of the elect. Those who preserve their fervour and adhere to virtue with love and zeal for the truth, will suffer injuries and, persecutions as rebels and schismatics; for their persecutors, urged on by the evil spirits, will say they are rendering a great service to God by destroying such pestilent men from the face of the earth. But the Lord will be the refuge of the afflicted, and will save all who trust in Him. And in order to be like their Head [Jesus Christ], these, the elect, will act with confidence, and by their death will purchase for themselves eternal life; choosing to obey God rather than man, they will fear nothing, and they will prefer to perish [physically] rather than consent to falsehood and perfidy. Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it under foot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor, but a destroyer. (Works of the Seraphic Father St. Francis Of Assisi [London: R. Washbourne, 1882], pp. 248-250; underlining and paragraph breaks added.)
Abortion, ending a life would be much worse than using contraceptives, abortion would be a grave sin. I see him discussing this, not laying down orders. If one wishes to read it a certain way, that's up to that individual and the way I read it is my agenda. Ok. I think Pail did warn us to not get too involved in arguments and chitchat.
I don't feel angry, do you? It was yourself who initiated the Pope Francis line of discussion on the forum. I am perfectly happy to follow you down this route if you wish to continue it. argument /ˈɑːɡjʊm(ə)nt/ noun: argument; plural noun: arguments 1. an exchange of diverging or opposite views, typically a heated or angry one. discussion /dɪˈskʌʃ(ə)n/ noun noun: discussion the action or process of talking about something in order to reach a decision or to exchange ideas. "the committee acts as a forum for discussion" a conversation or debate about a specific topic.
Pope Francis is less than ideal. Other Popes have made errors too. The "sins of the flesh" issue that I believe was brought up in the past few days and that he seemed to erroneously comment on, seems very wrong. I've read where he has given speeches and never mentioned Jesus once, this is wrong, badly wrong. Pope Francis Never Mentioned Jesus In His Speech To Congress (thefederalist.com) This is glaringly wrong and I don't think this is the only time this has happened. Inviting that abortion-activist to speak was very wrong (if may have been an underling that made the invitation, just like an underling may have been the one who disinvited Mary McAleese to speak but the blame goes to the top. That's still the rightful way to see it, more or less, could be exceptions but in general is so). So, he has his errors but I'm not sure if I am ready to be deeply condemning him on everything. A common sentiment is that migrants are bad, illegal migrants, we hear stories where they end up killing someone in the country that hosts them. 8 cyclists killed by drug-driver in horror crash in Italy | Daily Mail Online How can one not feel great animosity towards an immigrant, in this case from Italy doing something like this? What a nightmare. I know I am meandering here but the other side of the coin is a lot of migrants also die at sea in these capsized boats. We have a real problem. PF often unpopularly sides with the migrants. He is wrong on the clampdown on the Latin Mass, IMHO... but they talked about so-called Liturgical abuses. Maybe to a small extent that has happened. Bishop Cordileone spoke on the issue: Archbishop Cordileone ‘Grieved’ by ‘Disrespectful’ Responses’ to Pope Francis’ Curbs on Traditional Latin Mass| National Catholic Register (ncregister.com) And he'd be considered a voice of reason, he's probably gone to bat on this to lessen animosity towards the Pope. Cordileone is considered conservative and straightforward. So, this reasoning, PF has plenty of errors but I don't need what are for me, to manufacture other errors.
TinNM, I wasn't going to enter into this discussion, but in the bold above you infer that of the two sins, only abortion is grave. In Church parlance, grave means mortal. Since contraception is objectively mortal, it too is grave. Also, today's contraceptives , especially chemical ones, frequently do result in the destruction of a fertilized egg. In such cases it ends a life. Clarifying what is true should not be seen as mere chitchat or arguing for the sake of arguing. It is an expression of our love for Christ and Holy Church. We should be standing together in regard to the truth because the spouse of truth is love. Safe in the Barque of Peter!
Yes, today’s contraceptives are abortifacients - mostly The pills are, but let’s not forget the IUD which prevents the implantation of a fertilized ovum. The method okayed by the Church is Natural Family Planning. If you don’t have intercourse, you don’t need a contraceptive. Duh
I don't think it's a good clarification. Comparing abortion to contraception? Where does the Cathechisis say they compare? Do contraceptives also include the use of prophylactics'? So, nothing was said about abortafacients. No body denies this is a serious sin but I don't think it compares to taking a human life away. 6 Reasons Why Contraception is Sinful and Contrary to God's Will - Taylor Marshall Also: List of Mortal Sins Every Catholic Should Know – St. Mary of the Seven Dolors (stmaryofthesevendolors.com) The Fifth Commandment, “You shall not kill” Murder (intentional homicide)—Direct and intentional killing is gravely sinful (CCC 2268). It is a sin that cries to heaven for vengeance, much like the murder of Abel at the hands of Cain. Indirect homicide can also be of grave nature (such as refusing to help a person in danger). However, the Church teaches that self-defense is permissible for the preservation of a one’s life. If the attacker is mortally wounded or killed, then the death of the attacker is not a sin. Those who use unnecessary aggression in self-defense can sin mortally, if the attacker is killed or gravely injured. Abortion—Human life begins at conception in the mother’s womb. For God tells us, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew thee, and before you were born I consecrated you” (Jeremiah 1:5). Abortion is therefore murder. The oldest Christian book (besides parts of the Bible) is the Didache, a book composed by the twelve apostles or their disciples. The Didache proclaims the ancient teaching of the Catholic Church, “You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish” (Didache 2,2). All Catholics who procure a completed abortion or participate in execution of an abortion are automatically excommunicated from the Catholic Church (CCC 2272 and CIC Canon 1314). Euthanasia—The direct killing of the sick, handicapped, or dying, regardless of motive, is a grave sin. The will and action taken to cause a person’s death is an act of murder (CCC 2277). Those who are suffering and are nearing death must be allowed to die (or recover, which is sometimes a possibility) naturally. Administration of painkillers is permissible, provided the drugs are not willed as an end or a means to precipitate death. “Discontinuing medical procedures that are burdensome, dangerous, extraordinary, or disproportionate to the expected outcome can be legitimate; it is the refusal of ‘overzealous treatment” (CCC 2278). In this case death is not willed, but is merely accepted as inevitable and cannot be impeded. Suicide—Suicide is murder of the self. It is contrary to the love of God, self, family, friends and neighbors (CCC 2281). It is of especially grave nature, if it is intended to set an example for others to follow. Voluntary cooperation in a suicide is also contrary to the moral law. However, the responsibility of and gravity of suicide can be diminished in the cases of grave psychological disturbances, anguish, grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture. But this does not make it morally permissible, and it is the judgement of God that will measure the gravity or responsibility of the sin. Continued at link above. Missing Mass on Sunday can be a mortal sin as well and grave, if one wants to compare this to murder, be my guest but I won't. Unless, one takes the tact that all sins are equally bad, that case can be made too. But I hardly feel that walking down the aisle at Walgreen's and seeing condoms is of the same gravity, a non-negotiable as abortion. Catholic Answers has their 5 Non-Negotiables. Abortion is one, Contraceptive is not listed. The 5 Non-Negotiables Explained (catholic365.com)
Is there a source for this? I would not rely on what the press reports, one source says this: According to the new report from the National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS), which polled women from 2015 to 2017, sterilization was the most common contraceptive method for the roughly 47 million women in this age range. Almost 19% of women relied on female sterilization — a permanent procedure that involves either cutting, sealing, tying or manually blocking the fallopian tubes — for birth control. This Is the Most Common Type of Contraception In the U.S. | Time As said, I really would not trust any report as being faultless.
Well, sterilization is against Natural Law and has been condemned by the Catholic Church. I do not have any sources about the abortifacients but it’s readily available online.
To be fair, I have no idea if abortifacients are readily available in the area that were struck by Zika, tropical areas like Brazil. That's a whole thing to study and after all, abortion is not legal in Brazil. Let's not necessarily apply US standards to them. I think Zika was in Central America too.
This is a widely known and exceptionally well established scientific fact. Early versions of the pill, in the early 1960s, had such high doses of estrogen and progesterone that they caused an extremely high rate of serious side effects. So the doses of both estrogen and progesterone were reduced in each generation of the pill, until the side effects diminished. Unfortunately low dose versions of the pill permit breakthrough ovulation some percentage of the time. When that happens they work by secondary effect - they destroy the normal endometrial buildup to prepare the uterus for the implantation of a fertilized egg, so that early human dies. I.e., they’re abortifacients. Ultra low dose mini pills, progesterone only pills, progesterone implants and injections, and iuds with or without hormones are ALL abortifacients all the time. The morning after pill is also abortifacient part of the time. ***** Even Martin Luther called barrier methods and coitus interruptus “marital sodomy.” It’s an apt description for any sexual act inherently infertile (homosexual acts, masturbation) or made infertile (barrier methods.) Abortifacients are early chemical abortions, i.e., murder. Sodomy and murder, both “sins that cry out to heaven for vengeance” are mortally sinful. All acts of contraception and sterilization are objectively mortally sinful. All Christians since apostolic times believed this based on the Onan incident in Genesis. The soul in mortal sin loses the state of Grace and if one dies in that state, one goes to hell. Only the Catholic Church has stayed true to this teaching, of all the Christian denominations and sects. It’s one of the proofs of the indefectability of the Church and the heresy and apostasy of all the rest. All the other sects taught contraception was WRONG until 1930. They’ve all caved in to the worldly pressures since then. This is all off the top of my head, from extensive personal research, teaching NFP for years, giving talks and writing multiple articles on these subjects and being a doctor on the board of multiple pro life groups. If you need more “proof,” go look it up. It’s out there and widely available.
And any pope who says it’s ok to use contraception within marriage - for any reason - is a heretic. The Church is a Mother. If there is risk of deadly disease, she cannot recommend barrier methods. Barrier methods in real world use are only 75-85% effective at preventing pregnancy and a women can only get pregnant 7 to 10 days a month, but a deadly disease can be transmitted 31 days a month. Therefore the effectiveness of barrier methods at preventing a deadly disease is far less than 75%. Mother Church would NEVER advise her children to play Russian Roulette. Likewise she will NEVER advise married couples to use barrier methods of contraception in the case of a deadly communicable disease. It IS heresy for a pope to recommend condoms for Zika. It’s up to the Church to judge whether that heresy is merely material or is formal. If the latter, many Church doctors and Saints have said that a pope automatically loses the papacy in teaching formal heresy.
Psalm 127:3-5 Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward. As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth. Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them [i.e., 12 children is the ideal - the number of arrows in a full Hebrew quiver]: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.
Let's stop the silliness here. You cannot evoke the "lessor of two evils" argument here because there is a very good third alternative: deliver the child. You cannot advocate an intrinsically evil means to avoid a hypothetical situation where you *may* get preganant AND *may* catch Zika AND *may* have the Zika affect the baby.
