What happens if the pope is a heretic?

Discussion in 'Pope Francis' started by BrianK, Oct 22, 2022.

  1. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

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    John Michael Talbot, The Battle Belongs to the Lord

    "No weapon that is fashioned against us will stand."
     
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  2. Sam

    Sam Powers

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    1 Corinthians 14:33
     
  3. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

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    Thanks!
     
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  4. AED

    AED Powers

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    Thank you.:)
     
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  5. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

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    Committees breed commissars.

    I never heard of the Apostles forming one. They deferred to Peter.
     
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  6. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

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    Committees and synods are democratic in nature, a product of man. Consequently, they take power from below and their decisions are a result of a numerical power-play easily manipulated by pressure groups and demagogues. This power comes from below and travels upwards-how far below is the question that needs to be asked. Truth, on the other hand, comes down from above, starting with He who is Truth Himself.
     
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  7. padraig

    padraig Powers

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    Pope Francis defends appointing pro-abortion atheist to Pontifical Academy for Life

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    'And now I have put Marianna Mazzucato in the Pontifical Academy for Life,' the Pope stated. “She is a great economist from the United States. I put her there to give a little more humanity to it.'


    So for Pope Francis, the most important thing is that this pro abort is a woman. Because she is a woman it appears her pro abortion views don't count.

    His views on this matter are so amoral they chill the blood. It causes me to wonder if he has a conscience at all. This is typical of an extreme Left/ Wing Liberal World View that they define people by Gender/ Race/ Sexual Orientation. rather morality.

    She is a woman , so that's alright then. She's a , 'Great Economist' and she is a woman so everything's fine.

    https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/p...tm_source=featured-news&utm_campaign=catholic

    I see too that she is a big, supporter of the Lock Downs, Big Government spending and interventions and some kind of Great Reset.

    In other words as far leftist as it comes.

    https://www.crisismagazine.com/opinion/mariana-mazzucatos-reveal
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2022
  8. AED

    AED Powers

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    :cry:
     
  9. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

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    The Bergoglian philosophy is difficult to interpret except as indicating that the survival, or otherwise, of human life is mainly a matter of economics.

    He also appears to be contradicting his own views on cultural colonialism by appointing an American economist who might well be intent on restricting the populations of undeveloped nations.

    The only thing I would agree with is the world's need for a 'Reset'. However, her idea and mine of what this constitutes might be difficult to reconcile.
     
  10. Carol55

    Carol55 Ave Maria

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    Glenn just posted this video on its own thread. I thought that it should be posted here also.
    When things are at their worst?
     
  11. Juanita

    Juanita Angels

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    Is the pope trying to conform to the world or to God?
     
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  12. padraig

    padraig Powers

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    I read a number of Catholic commentators on this. It appears to come down to Discernment on when to listen and when to speak. Listening is important but after listening for a while it comes time to speak. To listen without speaking is vain just as speaking without listening is vain.

    The story of the Samaritan Woman at the Well is such a good example. Jesus listened very carefully and courteously to this lady (who had several, 'husbands ') and then spoke. He answered all her questions.

    On the other hand if occurs to me that the woman herself was a good listener and asked very good questions.

    So the whole thing ended well. :):)

    But there are many, many occasions when folks simply do not want to listen and become angry and hostile. It also appears that we cannot be the Eternal Listener without reaching a bottom line and have to speak out.

    It seems to me that at the moment there is a very very dishonest and false kind of listening just as their is a False and dishonest kind of, 'Mercy' and 'Compassion'.

    A for interest is in terms of Sexual Immorality and Sexual Perversion. The Church's stance on this is set in stone by the Ten Commandments, Scripture and 2,00o years of Church Teachings. These simply cannot be changed.

    What is Right is Right. What is Wrong is Wrong. When we are listening to people we must be honest with them. That there is a bottom line to these things. Otherwise we fool them with false expectations.

    It seems to me that a lot of the false Listening in the Church , originating as it does at its highest level with Pope Frankie, is that it is listening with an Agenda. That agenda is to use false listening as a vehicle to change Church Teachings.

    https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/...cis-meets-with-father-james-martin-at-vatican

    [​IMG]

    You know when Jesus met the woman at the Well it was not Jesus, but the woman who was changed.

     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2022
  13. BrianK

    BrianK Powers Staff Member

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    https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/c...cally-lose-his-office-if-he-became-a-heretic/

    Cdl. Müller: Pope would ‘automatically lose his office’ if he became a heretic
    LifeSiteTue Nov 15, 2022 - 11:17 am EST
    News

    'A pope could become a heretic as a private person and thus automatically lose his office if the contradiction to the revelation and the dogmatic teaching of the Church is evident,' affirmed the eminent cardinal.

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    Cardinal Gerhard Ludwig MüllerElke Wetzig / Wikimedia Commons
    (LifeSiteNews) – Cardinal Gerhard Müller said in a recent interview that a pope loses his office if he becomes a heretic and “if the contradiction to the revelation and the dogmatic teaching of the Church is evident.”

    Müller made the remarks about a pope possibly losing his office while answering a question about papal infallibility in an interview published onthe German Catholic news sitekath.net.

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    “Dogmatic declarations may have the quality of infallibility if their content derives from Sacred Scripture and the Apostolic Tradition of the Word of God, and if they are formally presented to be believed by the proper authority of the Magisterium of the Pope and the Bishops, with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, as a truth revealed by God,” the German cardinal explained.

    However, “a new public revelation they[the Pope and the bishops] do not accept as pertaining to the divine deposit of faith (Lumen Gentium 25),”Müller continued.

    READ: Cardinal Müller says obedience is not owed to an ‘obviously heretical bishop’

    “It is therefore erroneous to think that a council or a pope could annul an earlier dogma or stipulate, for example, that the nature of the sacrament of Holy Orders does not include the requirement of the male sex of its recipient,” the German cardinal said, adding that it would also be wrong to think that the pope or a council could introduce marriage between two people of the same sex.

    “In an extreme case, a pope could become a heretic as a private person and thus automatically lose his office if the contradiction to the revelation and the dogmatic teaching of the Church is evident,” Müller stated.

    The position that a Pope could become a heretic and lose his office was also held by St. Robert Bellarmine, a Doctor of the Church, who wrote about the issue in the second book of his work “De Romano Pontifice” (“On the Roman Pontiff”). According toBellarmine, “the Pope who is manifestly a heretic ceases by himself to be Pope and head, in the same way as he ceases to be a Christian and a member of the body of the Church; and for this reason he can be judged and punished by the Church.” (“De Romano Pontifice,” Book II, Chapter 30)

    READ: Cdl. Müller: ‘Nobody can change’ Catholic doctrine that homosexuality is ‘grave sin’

    “This is the opinion of all the ancient Fathers,” Bellarmine continued, “whoteach that manifest heretics immediately lose all jurisdiction, and outstandingly that of St. Cyprian (lib. 4, epist. 2) who speaks as follows of Novatian, who was Pope [antipope] in the schism which occurred during the pontificate of St. Cornelius: ‘He would not be able to retain the episcopate, and, if he was made bishop before, he separated himself from the body of those who were, like him, bishops, and from the unity of the Church.’”

    “According to what St. Cyprian affirms in this passage, even had Novatian been the true and legitimate Pope, he would have automatically fallen from the pontificate, if he separated himself from the Church,” Bellarmine stated, adding that “[t]he foundation of this argument is that the manifest heretic is not in any way a member of the Church, that is, neither spiritually nor corporally, which signifies that he is not such by internal union nor by external union.”

    Furthermore, Müller noted in the same interview that “every Pope must distinguish precisely between his task and himself as a private person,” and that a Pope “must not impose his preferences on other Christians.”

    “A pope or bishop or any other ecclesiastical superior must also not abuse the trust that is readily placed in him in a fraternal atmosphere in order to provide his incompetent or corrupt friends with ecclesiastical sinecures,” the German prelate continued.

    Müller mentioned the betrayal of Judas and the denial of Jesus by St. Peter before the Passion as proof that “Church officials in history and the present can also fail and abuse their office selfishly or narrow-mindedly.”

    The “best way” that the faithful “can support the Pope and the bishops is through prayer,” Müller stated, referencing Jesus Christ’s wordsdirected at St. Peter: “And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren.” (Luke 22:31-32)

    The German Cardinal and former head of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith has been a staunch critic of recent heterodox developments in the Church, especially the German Synodal Way and Pope Francis’ Synod on Synodality, which he called a “hostile takeover of the Church.”

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