the Catholic Church with Christ as its head and true King is the true kingdom of Israel ( the “new Israel”) , the kingdom God had prepared all Israelites for since He took them out of Egypt, but that most them rejected at the time of Christ. All that was prophesied about the kingdom of Israel in the Old Testament was fulfilled in the Catholic Church, with the Death and Resurrection of Christ, and St Peter and its successors…
Pope Pius X was one of the greatest Popes since St Peter - this is what he said about Jews - they need to be baptised.
I’m no good at cutting and pasting on my tablet so I will cite the Cathechism, 121, as saying the Old Covenant was never revoked. St John Paul referred to this in a speech. I had hoped this was to be allowed to be a positive thread. There is already a negative one, which I find painful reading. There are two threads on the Divine Will so whatever our views, please let us have this one to love the Jews as we pray for their conversion. Hatred of Jews is sinful, and in the world you only have to scratch the surface very gently to uncover a well of spite. Let’s not go there, please.
No one on this thread has shown hatred for the Jews. The only thing negative printed about the Jews was Jesus' teaching outlined in John 8. That is not anti-semitic - he was highlighting to the Jews that to reject Him is to reject Abraham and the Abrahamic covenant. Pope John Paul II in his teachings was referring to the Abrahimic covenant as I explained in an earlier post - that is the Old Covenant he was referring to (and not the Mosaic covenant that has been revoked). This has been the constant teaching of the Church for 2000 years.
The Abrahimic Covenant is the one that grafts Jews and Genitles together into the People of God - it is the Good News of Salvation History something to be celebrated! For Paul, "the promise of Abraham guarantees from the beginning the inner continuity of salvation history, from the patriarchs of Israel to the coming of Christ and the Church of Jews and Gentiles."Scripture presents salvation history not as a dichotomy between the new covenant and those of the Old Testament but rather as a "dynamic unity of the entire history." Indeed, from the perspective of eternity, there is only "one covenant," the "eternally valid" covenant of Abraham now perfectly fulfilled in Christ. The Abrahamic covenant was structured from the beginning to be fulfilled by Christ. In the very ritual establishing the Abrahamic covenant (cf. Gen. 15:12-21), God enacted "symbolically a conditional curse" upon himself, offering his own life as a surety. This ritual was a "sign of the Cross of Christ, in which God vouches for the indestructibility of the covenant with the death of his Son." Thus, the full meaning of the Abrahamic covenant is revealed only when "God binds his own existence to the creature, man, by taking human nature upon himself." For Paul, the children of Abraham are those in covenant with God by faith (cf. Gal. 3:6-7). God's promise to Abraham of blessing for the Gentiles (cf. Gen. 12:3) is the foundation of the gospel (cf. Gal. 3:8-9). In fact, the gospel can be described as the proclamation that the blessing for the Gentiles is now coming to pass through Christ (cf. Eph. 3:6). Within covenantal history, the promise of blessing was given to Abraham and fulfilled by Jesus, who "opens up and fulfills the wholeness of the Law and gives it thus to the pagans, who can now accept it . . ., thereby becoming children of Abraham." The Catechism, Ratzinger notes, presents the same teaching. The "'full number of the nations' now takes its 'place in the family of the patriarchs.'" Jesus is "the promised shoot of Judah, who unites Israel and the nations in the kingdom of God." Therefore, members of all nations enter the "People of God with Israel through adherence to the will of God and through acceptance of the Davidic Kingdom," understood not merely as a temporal political entity, but as God's rule on earth extended from heaven (cf. Isa. 52:7). In consequence, there is only one People of God, the Body of Christ, in which both Jews and Gentiles are welcome. "The mission of Jesus is to unite Jews and pagans into a single People of God." Paul's understanding of the Body of Christ as an organic "grafting" of the Gentiles into Israel was confirmed by the Second Vatican Council in Nostra Aetate 4; the Church "draws nourishment from that good olive tree onto which the wild olive branches of the Gentiles have been grafted (cf. Rom. 11:1724)." God prunes from this tree only those branches that refuse belief in Christ (cf. Rom. 11:20). Therefore, the Old Testament remains central to faith in Christ. "There is no access to Jesus and thereby can be no entrance of the nations into the People of God without acceptance in faith of . . . the Old Testament." (Stephen Pimentel)
Clearly there is going to be no ‘meeting of minds’ on this matter and I am too old to spend time ‘banging my head on a wall’. However, it might help interested 'bystanders' to make a couple of observations. 1. I have never previously heard the theory that Abraham before circumcision became the father of the gentiles and afterwards, the father of the Jews. I see no support for such a novel theory which appears to be calculated to ‘explain’ how an eternal covenant with Abraham might apply to gentiles rather than be specific to Jews. Everyone’s common ancestors are Adam and Eve, not Abraham. 2. Church teaching on Judaism is clear. The covenants that God made with the Jews are eternal and irrevocable and so the Jews have an important role in God’s plan. If you reject clear and official Church teaching, then you have the problem rather than the Jews and it is a serious one. Catholics by definition accept official Catholic teaching. Catholic Teaching on Jews and Judaism (catholiceducation.org) I would urge anyone with an interest in this topic to read ‘Salvation is From the Jews’ which is an excellent treatise on the matter and provides abundant scriptural support for the author’s, and the Church’s, position on the matter.
I don't know whether or not this has been posted on the forum but here is a recent video of a member of the Turkish parliament calling down the curse of Allah on Israel and then immediately dying on live TV so fulfilling God's promise to Abraham that 'Whoever blesses Israel will be blessed and whoever curses Israel will be cursed' (Numbers 24:9). The Sign of The Statue | Jonathan Cahn Prophetic (youtube.com)
The idea that the scripture bolded above today refers to a modern secular humanist nation in the Middle East that embraces all the woke errors of the West is a major American Protestant error, one imbibed hook, line and sinker by many American Catholics. That scripture applies to Christ’s Church, the Catholic Church, which is the New Israel as per the New Testament. Misreading a Vatican II document to contradict the New Testament, a document which itself is problematic at best, does not change this fact.
The thing is--it happened. Right there on TV. The curse came back on him. The statue of St Peter in Buenos Aires was struck by lightning on PF's birthday. The halo was destroyed. The hand and the keys were destroyed. It happened. God does send signs. What God is saying with these signs might be opened to interpretation but the events happened.
You must know that it is a great effort when speaking like that(turkish man), which of course increases the pressure on the circulatory system and the heart, and everything results in this way when there are predispositions. There are several Israeli ministers who advocated war, and their children died. God did not punish them, they punished themselves because they went with hatred and revenge. The Lord Himself said that he who lives by the sword dies by the sword. People like to put themselves too much above God or that they are equal to him. So they put things as "chosen" to justify their bad actions. All Christians are chosen, but to do good, not evil. No one will be saved by himself because for God there are no nations, no races except human. Man has sinned against God and God is looking for a way to reconcile man with God. He chooses Abraham and then his offspring, later due to betrayal and disobedience he changes his plan to other nations. However, the ultimate goal has always been the same, the reconciliation of man with God on God's initiative, where he uses people again as a means of reconciliation. Not of one people, not of one race or nation, but of all mankind because Adam and Eve committed a sin that fell on all people, not just some. God decided to make atonement in this way, and he could do it however he wanted because it is His will. When you look at Jesus' actions, there are a bunch of examples where he often shamed the other Jews, and lifted up the Samaritans, Romans and other "non-believers" who were righteous and humble like, say, a Roman centurion. To him Jesus says that there is no such faith in all of Israel, and not to some Pharisee who thought he was chosen by God. God cannot go against himself, which is love, justice and mercy. Someone has been given more knowledge, someone less, but that means we have more responsibility because we have been given more. God will ultimately save those who did His will and followed the laws, not those who think they have certain privileges either through position, knowledge or belonging to Jews, Christians, etc... One of the greatest sins is to do evil and claim that you are doing it in the name of God. Unfortunately, many people do this today, and they do it out of their own interests.
Roy Shoman is wonderful. A gentle, holy man. The story of his conversion is amazing. I could watch it over and over again. It is also true as Pope Pius xii said that the Jews are our Spiritual Grandparents in the Faith and so are owed profound respect and gratitude for this. But I think we do have to distinguish between Zionism and the Jewish Faith. What is happening in Gaza at the moment is abominable
God will save those who did his will but will not save those who persecuted the gospel; if they don't regret it. This is the biblical doctrine; It is not a matter of privilege, you must believe in the Son of God who died on the cross for us and rose again on the third day, to be saved. As for the Jewish people, they have a very clear role in biblical eschatology; His conversion will mark a sign of the glorious return of Christ, therefore the objective of some Islamic radicals to eradicate the Jewish people, following the teachings of the Qur'an to the letter, will never come to fruition as the existence of the Jewish people until the end of time is one of the requirements that God chose for the return of Christ. Just as Satan used Herod to prevent the incarnation of Christ; Just as he tempted Our Lord to prevent the redemption of the world, so at the end of time he will try to destroy the Jewish people as this would cause widespread disbelief in the return of Christ. ROMANS 11:11-24 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring! 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
The obligation to believe in the Son of God to be saved also applies to Jews, however, this does not mean that God will allow Israel's enemies (those who want to annihilate the Jewish people) to prevail.
Catholic doctrine is indeed quite simple to understand, I don't know why people like to complicate it. It was no coincidence that Jesus chose simple people like fishermen as His disciples.
Well, what prompted me to post on this thread was the claim by someone who declares himself a proud zionist that anti-zionism is anti-semitic. That claim is simply ridiculous and should never be entertained. Are there anti-zionists who are also anti-semitic? Undoubtedly yes. Are all Jews zionists? Definitely not, and some of its earliest opponents were rabbis. Are anti-Zionism Jews also anti-Semitic? Definitely not although Theodor Herzl called them despicable. Are there members of the Protestant Christian Zionist movement who are also anti-Catholic. Undoubtedly yes. Does that mean that I should declare all members of that Protestant cult anti-God? No. They are mistaken and we should pray for their conversion, just as we should pray for the conversion of the Jews. But, and this is a big but, we should never give anyone a pass on genocide whether they do so by deed or by glossing over the evil of the perpetrators and implying that doing so is contrary to the will of God. Theodor Herzl wasn't anti-genocide. He offered to pay the debt of the Turkish Sultan after the Armenian genocide, suggesting that he could help restore the Sultan's reputation in Europe in return for the Sultan's support of an Israeli State. The offer wasn't accepted. But Adolph Hitler was later quoted as saying "Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?" Zionist Israel is no stranger to co-operating with Muslims when it suits them. Didn't they support the Azeris in Azerbeijan's conflict with Armenia? The Holocaust wasn't Germany's first genocide. Maybe if they had received justice for their genocide in Namibia, the Holocaust might not have happened, and maybe there would have been justice had the Namibians been white. Lots of maybes and no doubt lots of excuses. But there's no excuse now. People here can do all the pearl clutching they like, insinuating that opposing Zionism is opposing Jesus and implying that it makes them uncomfortable because they only want to hear from people who agree with them. Well, I hope they are uncomfortable. Genocide should horrify any human being. Sadly, and disgracefully, it's anti-zionism rather than genocidal zionists that shock them. Well, when they get over their fit of the vapours, next time they drink a glass of water or have something to eat, let them contemplate what it must be like for Palestinians trying to find drinkable water and searching for scraps of food as God's first chosen prevent aid from reaching them. Yes, Roy Shoeman seems to be a nice man and I'm sure all Heaven rejoiced at his conversion. I just didn't like the way he spoke about the Palestinians.
