Maria Divine Mercy

I know all that. I am totally confused about your position. You don't believe that they are necessary to salvation, I agree. You don't believe in/take notice of any apparitions approved or not. Then I think that you are depriving yourself of enormous spiritual assistance especially in the cases of Fatima, Lourdes, Akita and Kibeho. I intend to leave this here. I don't know why you would subscribe to a forum where we are so interested in apparitions.

 

Somebody turn off the lights. It's no fun to fight all by yourself.

 

It is hard for me to understand the stance of not believing in a church approved apparition. If you are catholic and the church approves belief that our mother came down from heaven to tell us something (weather it be prophecy or just to tell us she loves us). How can you toss that aside as "not be obligated to believe". That is our mother. She made a very special trip for all of us. Of course we have our chatecism. Aren't these apparitions just icing on the cake? I am so grateful for all of these messages. Dear mother do not stop. And if it is in the will of the father, let garabandal and medjugorje be approved .

 

I don't need a revelation to tell me that God loves me. That's already quite clear from Catholic Church teachings. Even the writings of mystics and saints of the Church already caution anyone from embracing such revelations unless approved by the church. No Catholic is obligated to believe in these messages, even approved ones. You said it yourself, they are just "icing on the cake." But only for approved ones. The dangers are quite real. You should just read about the false mystic Sister Magdalena de la Cruz about the dangers of being misled by false seers. She became famous for her prophesies, visions and stigmata misleading even high church officers in Spain, only to end up confessing she made a pact with the devil.

 

Of course you do not "need" an apparition to know. I also don't have to tell my children how much I love them...but I do tell them everyday...many times a day. That is what mothers do.

 

Here, if you know your catechism, it would not be difficult to "understand the stance of not believing in a church approved apparition."

67 Throughout the ages, there have been so-called "private" revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ's definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.

Private revelations, if and when approved, can help you grow in your faith. But even so, it is just a HELP. The Flemish Catholic Theologian E. Dhanis said:


"ecclesiastical approval of a private revelation has three elements: the message contains nothing contrary to faith or morals; it is lawful to make it public; and the faithful are authorized to accept it with prudence. . . . Such a message can be a genuine help in understanding the Gospel and living it better at a particular moment in time; therefore it should not be disregarded. It is a help which is offered, but which one is not obliged to use.

 

Some of the most intense feelings of love are felt, not heard. I remember my mother ironing my school uniform everyday as a kid. She never said I love you to me in her entire life, may she rest in peace. At least not that I can remember. But the warmth of those freshly ironed clothes on my body are enough to tell me about the warmth of my mother's love embracing me every time. She didn't have to say it. Her love for me is not even a matter of belief. I know it. Same with God and my Catholic Religion.

 

Alex, nearly all the 70,000 people who attended the Great Miracle on October 13, 1917 were non-believers in the Fatima apparitions of the blessed mother to 3 children. Who do you think received the greater graces on that day, the nonbelievers or the believers? I contend that unless there is sound reason to disbelieve (as false doctrines are being taught) it is better to believe than not to believe. There is no sin in not believing, but there is no grace in not believing either.

 

Alex I like what you said here. Love is shown in many ways, not just by lip service, but especially in action.

 

You are talking about a 3% exception. Of the 700+ apparitions since 1900, only 20+ have been approved. Hence, the chances of believing in a false prophet is about 97%. You want to stake your immortal soul on a mere 3% chance that an apparition is authentic. That's your call. I stick with the safety of what my Church tells me in the Catholic Catechism:

67 Throughout the ages, there have been so-called "private" revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ's definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history.

 

"It is better to believe than not to believe"
"This is from God." (referring to the messages)

Indeed, these were the same assertions I received when debating with MDMers.

 

And I contend that anyone who was following MDM should have picked up on bad doctrine much earlier. This is why I am not fond of LTTW, as it has many very odd 'play by play' messages throughout. I will also say, that many are not well grounded in Church doctrine and thus will follow anything that moves their soul, either for good or bad.

 

Thank you. I myself do not verbalize my emotions and just prefer to show it.

 

Exactly, and that is why it is safer to wait for Church approval on these things before plunging head long into embracing them. The deception can be quite subtle, mixing the truth with lies, piety with blasphemy. Unless one is schooled in catechism, it is so easy to be deceived. It only takes a drop of poison to make an otherwise pleasing cup of coffee fatal. A message can be full of pious admonitions to prayers, devotions and exhortations to attend mass as what MDM's messages contain. But you have to know what the church says about its indefectibility, the infallible fact of the Papal election, and the improbability of having a pope as the false prophet to know that MDM's messages come from the Father of Lies and Deceit bent on fomenting schism and apostasy on the faithly.

 

I think that is why many on this forum have credibility in discernment, as many are very catechetically sound. Plus we have a sound man, Padraig, at the helm! Allot of 'checks and balances' on this site.

 

Sorry, I don't have that impression. The fact that their words fly in the face of the church stand on private revelations clearly shows they are as much at risk of falling into the snares of the devil as most catholics are. I find it odd actually, that something as basic as waiting for Church approval before embracing any prophet has to be debated on for over three pages of this thread.

 

I'm sure you realize that most of the Saints dealt in mysticism and apparitions. Also that NO ONE's 'cause' can be called forward to the Vatican without the 'cult of people' PUSHING IT FORWARD. It is the PEOPLE who demand that a person be beautified. It is the PEOPLE who demand that the Vatican look at the cause. Without sufficient DEVOTION and love and honor and VOICE---the status for saint-hood/beatification/venerable dies out.

Hence, the Catholic Church ENCOURAGES, INSPIRES,and REWARDS those who devote time and prayer to people whose virtue is WORTHY of attention. THAT makes the Catholic Church CATHOLIC and different than any other religion. ALL ARE CALLED TO SAINTHOOD. Mysticism, apparitions, locutions, visions, bi-location, levitation, extraordinary gifts of the spirit etc. are indeed preternatural gifts that God gives to build up the Church and it literally is a wake-up call to ALL PEOPLE , that God's gifts are holy, are many and are diverse.

I understand that you feel you don't need the mystical in your life and the Church is sufficient as it stands. The many signs and wonders that God is giving in the world and that includes messages through his Mother/Son/Father/Angels etc. are worthy to read IF NOT ONLY TO DESCERN what is good to keep, and what is to be tossed out. The Holy Spirit didn't give me TWO GIFTS of the spirit of Understanding (I know, I'm dense) just to have me sit on my hands and do nothing....He desires for me to read and ACT and SPEAK and TEACH.

I have no respect for Ron Conte Jr. He has to much time on his hands. His personal attacks on Priests is shameful. Especially when he devotes entire websites to his attacks. He is like a boy who has been told no and he gets vengeful. Pure pride.

I understand where you are coming from Alex. I have this argument with my son all the time who seems to be afraid of the workings of the Holy Spirit; as educated as he is. I respect your decision to stay away from 'visionaries and their messages'. There is so much false out there and loonie-tune people.

I however, desire to let the Holy Spirit speak to my heart and when I am in prayer, I continue to be led to do the things God desires of me as one of our Lady's servants. Have I been wrong? You betcha. That is usually when I don't discern enough or talk to my spiritual Father enough. So, it is a learning process that makes us grow and trust and hope and love more. If I had a message for 'the world', I certainly would be at the feet of my spiritual Father and ONLY through his direction would I do anything.

Thank you for your work on MDM. You have certainly saved souls. BRAVO! Praise God!

 

An exhilarating task awaits you: to rekindle hope in the hearts of the faithful belonging to your resurgent Church. Devote time and attention to the laity, particularly to the young, who are the Church's future: teach them to meet Christ in liturgical prayer, restored to its beauty and solemnity after the constraints of secrecy, in diligent meditation on Sacred Scripture, in assimilation of the Fathers, theologians and mystics. Teach young people to strive for difficult goals, as befits the children of martyrs. Teach them to reject the facile illusions of consumerism; to stay in their land so that together they can build a future of peace and prosperity; to be open to Europe and the world; to serve the poor, who are the icon of Christ; to prepare themselves to be Christian professionals in order to imbue civil society with honesty and solidarity; not to distrust politics but to make their presence felt with that spirit of service it particularly needs. JPII-Homilies-http://www.clerus.org/bibliaclerusonline/en/frz.htm

 

Thank you. But I don't expect to save souls. Only Christ can save souls. The most I can do, or any Catholic under pain of sin, is to perform fraternal correction on errant catholics and restore them on the right path. But only to a point. If they don't believe, so be it. Salvation requires the exercise of free will. If people remain in sin despite being shown their errors, that's their call.

Only when approved by the Church. Let's not forget, even the devil can perform wonders.

Just because there have been Saints who have shown their gifts of mysticism doesn't mean people should start following any new mystic or seer who have not been approved by the church. In fact, even St. John of the Cross was quite severe in castigating people who want to enrich their faith through such mystic revelations. He rightly said that faith is not about seeing, but about not seeing and still believing. People who are looking for seers to fill in their spiritual void are clearly wanting in faith. Scripture, the sacred traditions and the magisterium are not enough for them, they want proof from seers to show them a dancing sun or a crying statue or some wondrous miracle before believing.

It is rare for the Vatican to approve a private revelation, preferring to leave the judgement to the local bishop. And the Church is not known to make any official declaration on a private revelation that is on-going.

The Holy Spirit works in the Church. You feel Him every time you go to mass as well as when you pray and help people in need. I don't have to look for Him in private revelations which as you rightly said, is fraught with so many "loonie-tune people." I may have some catechismal learning to make some personal discernment. But I leave it to the Church which is the final authority in discerning true from false revelations before assenting my credulity to any prophet. But even so, approved revelations do not comprise my faith.

You don't have to respect Ron Conte, Jr. But like you said, take the good from the bad when making a discernment. That also applies to secular writings and ideas. Ron Conte has made some of the most ridiculous predictions, but he makes sense to me elsewhere. His eschatology, like any other, is pure speculation. Nothing wrong with that. And he acknowledges his errors. It takes humility to acknowledge your error. People are known to be merciless on one's faults, and conveniently forget about his/her virtues.