Okay Fallen Saint. Don't play cutsie There are 2 kinds of grace. Not lots. It is one of these types or the other. Only one is specific to the marital state itself. That is Sacramental Grace.
Sg Catholic, I never said that cohabitating couples recieve "Fidelity" to remain in a sinful union. I said what I believe the Holy Father said....... that they have been given by God an actual grace of fidelity to each other. Please see my responce post 110 to Praetorian. Edited to place in number 110 post......... Praetorian, the fidelity I was speaking of,....... is the fidelity of the couple in the secular contractual Marriage, not the fidelity to sin or a fidelity to remain in a sinful union. Fidelity on part of the couple to each other, is a God given grace, and hopefully this fidelity would lead them to live chastely when, by Gods Love, Mercy and calling they are drawn to see the error of ways, which would be accomplished by extra graces from God to understand the Gift that He presents to them in Sacramental Catholic marriage and the grace to seek forgiveness of their fornication, live chastely and recieve Sacramental Catholic marriage. Praetorian, Thank you for your kind reply and I agree with you............. The article makes a direct quote that he did. Perhaps they mangled the translation or he was misquoted. I'm sure our Holy Father knows that the sacrament of Marriage brings sanctifying graces through the sacrament, such graces would include but not be limited to commitment, patience, fedility, long suffering, forebearence, etc, etc. If we look at what the Pope actually said, we see that he was referencing only the actual grace of fidelity. I’ve seen a lot of fidelity in these cohabitations, and I am sure that this is a real marriage, they have the grace of a real marriage because of their fidelity, but there are local superstitions, etc.” Now I know that it is reported that he said "they have the grace of a real marriage" instead of "they have a grace of a real marriage" but he then goes on to quantify the grace of Fidelity, so he was not saying they have all the sacramental graces of a real marriage nor did he say they have the santifying grace that a real marriage would bring! Looking at other sacraments we can see similar anomalies.........as Catholics we know that those saints that did not formally recieve the sacrament of Baptism but died wanting this grace recieve either the baptism of disire or the baptism of blood. And God accepts this desire and grants a baptism. God gives many actual and sanctifying graces in the sacrament of confession such as remorse, strength, a desire to not sin again, resolve etc, etc but we also know that God can give an actual grace of remorse and sorrow before death to a catholic that has never recieved the sacrament of confession! So I think the Holy Father was looking at what God had given the couple which is the actual grace of fedility to each other. I suppose you could say he was looking at the positives and not the negatives but of course I believe he should clarify his statements I think he was trying to enact what St Paul discribes in 1 Corinthians 13:4-7, but much to his demise it seems! 4 Love is always patient and kind; love is never jealous; love is not boastful or conceited, 5 it is never rude and never seeks its own advantage, it does not take offence or store up grievances. 6 Love does not rejoice at wrong doing, but finds its joy in the truth. 7 It is always ready to make allowances, to trust, to hope and to endure whatever comes.
I don't know if this article helps or further clouds this debate: http://m.ncregister.com/daily-news/amoris-laetitia-sanctifying-grace-and-actual-grace#.WOrEjjz3bYV ‘Amoris Laetitia,’ Sanctifying Grace and Actual Grace Posted by Father Raymond J. de Souza on Friday Apr 7th, 2017 at 9:38 AM COMMENTARY: A loss in the distinctions is a reason so much confusion over the document remains, one year after its publication. One year after the release of Amoris Laetitia (The Joy of Love) on April 8, 2016, there has been no shortage of commentary about its teachings on the moral status and sacramental discipline for couples living in conjugal relationships without being validly married. While the principal focus has been on couples who are validly married but living with someone else after a civil divorce and remarriage, the case of cohabiting couples is also relevant. One year after the release of Amoris Laetitia (The Joy of Love) on April 8, 2016, there has been no shortage of commentary about its teachings on the moral status and sacramental discipline for couples living in conjugal relationships without being validly married. Elsewhere, I have reviewed the various twists and turns over Amoris Laetitia, but it seems that, stepping back, a critical dimension of the Amoris Laetitia debate is a confusion over the nature of grace. Specifically, the differences between sanctifying grace, actual grace and sacramental grace. Grace is a participation in the very life of God (Catechism, 1997). That life is shared with us in different ways. In baptism, the soul receives “sanctifying grace,” or, as the Catechism is bold enough to call it, “deifying grace” (1999). God’s own Trinitarian life now dwells in the soul. For this reason, a person who dies in a state of sanctifying grace cannot be separated from God, because God cannot separate himself from his own life, freely given and shared. Catholics have generally spoken of this as being in a “state of grace.” “Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love,” the Catechism states (2000). To receive holy Communion, a soul must be in a state of grace. If someone knowingly and freely receives Communion when not in a state of grace, he commits a further grave sin. This sanctifying grace can be lost, or rendered “dead” in the soul, on account of grave or mortal sin. Mortal sin requires that the person acts with full knowledge and consent. Such a soul is spoken of as not being in a state of grace, or in a “state of mortal sin.” Upon death in such a state, the person would not have the life of God within him, and so would not be able to be in God’s immediate presence in heaven, for God does not share his life with those who have freely chosen to reject it. The usual way that those who have committed grave sin return to a state of grace is the sacrament of reconciliation (confession), which requires a confession of sins, contrition for them and a firm purpose of amendment. Is the soul in a state of mortal sin, deprived of sanctifying grace and then left to itself, severed from God without his help? Hardly the case. God desires that the sinner be reconciled and comes to his assistance. He gives him the help of his grace, but here a distinction is made between sanctifying grace and “actual grace.” The former is habitual, or enduring, a state of the soul. The latter is a discrete act of God’s help. “Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God’s call, is distinguished from actual graces, which refer to God’s interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification,” the Catechism states (2000). Every day, God showers actual graces upon all, prompting them to deepen their lives of discipleship. We often ask precisely for such graces in this or that particular circumstance. For those in a state of grace, actual graces confirm and deepen an existing relationship with God. For the unbaptized and those in a state of mortal sin, actual graces are not lacking, for God prompts them to seek conversion and reconciliation. Often those actual graces take the form of the promptings of conscience. Actual graces are what permit those not in a state of grace to live uprightly in various respects. Thus even the soul in a state of mortal sin need not be distant from God or cut off from his care. The Catechism also speaks of “sacramental graces,” which are “gifts proper to the sacraments” (2003). For example, the sacramental grace of confession absolves sins, returns the grave sinner to a state of grace and helps him to live the virtues. The grace of marriage unites the spouses in an indissoluble bond and provides for them a source of divine assistance to live their marriage vows. So how does this apply to Amoris Laetitia? The document goes to great lengths to say that a person, validly and even sacramentally married, might leave that marriage to live in a sexual relationship with another and not be in a state of mortal sin, even while knowing that the biblical teaching of Jesus is unambiguously clear that such a union is adulterous. “Hence it can no longer simply be said that all those in any ‘irregular’ situation are living in a state of mortal sin and are deprived of sanctifying grace,” Amoris Laetitia states (301). “More is involved here than mere ignorance of the rule. A subject may know full well the rule, yet have great difficulty in understanding ‘its inherent values,’ or be in a concrete situation which does not allow him or her to act differently and decide otherwise without further sin.” That passage is difficult to reconcile with the teaching of the Catechism, or St. John Paul II’s 1993 encyclical on the moral life, Veritatis Splendor (The Splendor of Truth). Can a grave sin (an adulterous union) be fully known and freely chosen without a loss of sanctifying grace? It would appear not... Read the rest at the link
Thank you Brian, A very good article. I believe the couple in an adulterous union lose santifying grace but as the article states God can continue to give actual graces to prompt the soul to return to sanctifying grace and that would be with the sacrament of confession and a firm purpose of amendment. From article......... Is the soul in a state of mortal sin, deprived of sanctifying grace and then left to itself, severed from God without his help? Hardly the case. God desires that the sinner be reconciled and comes to his assistance. He gives him the help of his grace, but here a distinction is made between sanctifying grace and “actual grace.” The former is habitual, or enduring, a state of the soul. The latter is a discrete act of God’s help. “Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God’s call, is distinguished from actual graces, which refer to God’s interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification,” the Catechism states (2000). Every day, God showers actual graces upon all, prompting them to deepen their lives of discipleship. We often ask precisely for such graces in this or that particular circumstance. For those in a state of grace, actual graces confirm and deepen an existing relationship with God. For the unbaptized and those in a state of mortal sin, actual graces are not lacking, for God prompts them to seek conversion and reconciliation.
Just to clarify, God provides actual grace to the sinner in spite of, not because of, his adultery. That actual grace prompts his conscience to repent of his adultery, confess it, and return to a state of sanctifying grace through the sacramental grace of confession. Without repentance he cannot obtain sanctifying grace; a person planning to continue living in sin (adultery) cannot be absolved nor "receive the graces of marriage" nor can he be admitted to the Eucharist and the sacrimental graces of the Eucharist cannot be of benefit to his soul. On the contrary, "he eats and drinks condemnation" when he receives in grave sin.
It is a presumption to think that the Pope meant a grace when he said the grace. He said "they have the grace of a real marriage". This can only mean the sacramental grace of real marriage. He also said that he is "sure cohabitation is a real marriage"! He didn't say 'they have the grace of a real marriage which is their fidelity'. He said "they have the grace of a real marriage because of their fidelity". Sorry, this argument doesn't hold. More like wishful thinking on the part of Pope Francis' supporters.
Presumption...glad you like my word. That is half your arguments. The difference is we use it as explanation. You use it to reach conclusion. The real presumption is to say the grace and not a grace means sacramental marriage. You can't do that. Not possible. Brother al
You are welcome Josephite This is such an intricate issue. Every word and nuance can change entire meanings. You wrote: Edited to place in number 110 post......... the fidelity I was speaking of,....... is the fidelity of the couple in the secular contractual Marriage, not the fidelity to sin or a fidelity to remain in a sinful union. Fidelity on part of the couple to each other, is a God given grace, and hopefully this fidelity would lead them to live chastely when, by Gods Love, Mercy and calling they are drawn to see the error of ways, which would be accomplished by extra graces from God to understand the Gift that He presents to them in Sacramental Catholic marriage and the grace to seek forgiveness of their fornication, live chastely and recieve Sacramental Catholic marriage. I see what you are getting at here. Taken entirely separately from the quote we are talking about, yes fidelity in and of itself could be a virtue and could come from a grace. The problem here is that it is being linked up with a sinful situation and so it is confusing to people. So "fidelity" on it's own can be a good thing, but fidelity to a sinful union (and hence to sin) would not. We have to be careful though. "Fidelity" is not always a grace. If there are 2 homosexuals who are civilly "married" and "faithful" to each other is this due to a grace? Surely not. So all "fidelity" is not necessarily a grace. Who can know the mind of God or exactly how grace works? I do not claim to. He is so merciful we would surely die if we could see it. That being said, God has given us the guidance of the Church to live by and the Church teaches that Catholics who get civilly married are in a state of fornication which is a mortal sin. They are not truly married in any sense.
So one might as well say there is grace is murder, grace in stealing, grace in using the Lords name in vain, grace in adultery and sodomy and in every other sinful action. Why limit it only to fornication? It makes no sense to use the word grace in the context of sinful conditions. At the very least it is confusing language, which God rejects and worst it is gravely harmful to souls.
There is never grace in the act of sin. That is your presumption of what the Holy Father is saying. He is justified to say grace can come even in the most horrifying circumstances. And Pretorians analogy of gay unions having fidelity...can not be compared to this debate. The real sin of homosexuality is the sin of selfishness. The act of homosexuality has no other purpose then self pleasure. Fidelity plays no role in right or wrong because there is no end. A civilly married couple has the possibility of creating a soul. And if a civilly married couple lives in fidelity and gradually comes to the Sacrament of Marriage and Sacramental grace. Then my question to you is how did it happen. My answer is grace. And to demonstrate how most of us don't really understand what we are talking about. No one has even mentioned the notion of time. What is time in the eyes of God. The ever ending Now. The timeline or better said Gods moment allows grace throughout our lives..,even when we are in sin.
Just to be clear I was in no way saying what Pope Francis allegedly said had anything to do with homosexuality. It did not. The point in bringing that up was to make a very specific point in regards to what Josephite said about fidelity being a grace. Fidelity could be a grace, but it isn't always. If an adulterous heterosexual couple was in a second civil "marriage" and showed fidelity to each other that would not be a grace either because they shouldn't be together at all. So the use of the homosexual "couple" was just an extreme way of making a point because many people don't see a clear delineation between civil marriages and sacramental ones. When in reality the difference is huge. In fact civil "marriages" between Catholics are not marriages at all.
Have you ever thought that may be the syntax of the sentence was mistranslated? This happens with the best of translators because even though a translator maybe fluent in many languages; conveying meaning from one language to another, often means that the wording of the sentence has to change! As some languages do not use pronouns in the same way as other languages do and many languages have limited prepositions! [the words 'a' and 'the' are prepositions]. I mention this because why would any person, let alone the Holy Father, state and reiterate on just one actual grace [that of fidelity] when in sacramental marriage, he of all people knows that there are numerous graces given in sacramental marriage! But he did not mention any other grace! Worth a thought don't you think?
Yes the article also clarifies this, stating that God is not restricted in giving actual graces, even to people in mortal sin! Which I think is helpful for us, when trying to understand that it is God that gives graces and never a sin as this would be impossible, whether that sin be fornication, murder, stealing, using the Lords name in vain, adultery etc! For those in a state of grace, actual graces confirm and deepen an existing relationship with God. For the unbaptized and those in a state of mortal sin, actual graces are not lacking, for God prompts them to seek conversion and reconciliation.
It appears that the same argument is being presented again and again, without the previous rebuttals being understood or accepted. It is understood that only God gives graces. The point of the argument is that God will not give the 'grace' of fidelity to any couple who remain in mortal sin. For doing so would mean that God would be going against His nature. To paraphrase Praetorian - To state that God would give a couple the Grace of fidelity to each other such that they can continue in their state of perpetual mortal sin, is against His nature. It is saying He would will mortal sin. Pope Francis said that 'he is sure cohabitation is a real marriage'! What syntax error can there be in that?
It is understood that only God gives graces...........I am glad you understand that! The point of the argument is that God will not give the 'grace' of fidelity to any couple who remain in mortal sin........So who is giving the grace of fidelity to these couples that remain for the time, in mortal sin? Syntax means........the arrangement of words and phrases to create well-formed sentences in a language. When a sentence is translated the translators have to deal with problematic areas. These include: lexical-semantic problems; grammar; syntax; rhetoric; and pragmatic and cultural problems. Remember it was translated!
I find it is interesting that those who resort to sarcasm, which is the lowest form of wit, is used primarily by those who have no answer to a question posed!
Let's just remember though, that what may appear to be a "grace" to us may not be. Two people in an adulterous second "marriage" may be totally faithful to each other for the rest of their lives. Yet this is not from any grace, for they shouldn't be together in the first place.
