What makes you think that these cardinals are acting on their own without Pope Francis' backing? After all they were elevated into positions of power by this pope, and receive congratulatory letters when they interpret Amoris Laetitia to allow Holy Communion to the divorced and remarried. How can you be so sure that Pope Francis is acting as he is 'because he sees the bigger picture'? His words and actions surely do not support this.
Praetorian, Some posters are posting, on many different threads, linking heresy to the Pope, of course this is their understanding of what was implied by the Pope, God Bless them, but not actually stated by the Pope. When a poster conveys that the Pope is speaking heresy, than the logical conclusion is that these posters are saying the pope is a heretic. I will give an anology.......... If a person posts, that a mass murderer built ovens and burnt the bodies of people that he used poisionous gasses to kill and then links that to Hitler, the logical assumption is they believed Hitler to be a mass murderer. There are many things about Our Holy Father's statements that I don't understand and I am concerned about a number of things he is reported to have said and I'm all for sound debate, but to state that Our Holy Father said that living in sin gives graces! Is a grave injustice to Our Holy Father! because he never said that. I was calling out member Fatima who said that Our Holy Father indicated that living in cohabitation brings actual graces. This is clearly a heretical statement but Our Holy father never said nor implied that.
But Pope Francis did say it! This has already been discussed earlier on this thread. Here it is again - "I’ve seen a lot of fidelity in these cohabitations, and I am sure that this is a real marriage, they have the grace of a real marriage because of their fidelity, but there are local superstitions, etc.” http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/most-marriages-today-are-invalid-pope-francis-suggests-51752/
God is the origin of all goodness and goodness cannot endure without grace. Fidelity is a good thing, it is a grace! Pope Francis was saying that the actual grace of fidelity is given by God and not by the sin of cohabitation. No matter who believes that the Pope heretically said that sin brings grace. The Pope did not say that! He also stated they [the contractual married couple] have a grace of a real marriage because of their fidelity. In this sence only, I believe. Grace is not given by any sin.... as that would mean a kingdom divided against itself! please see Matthew 12: 26
What the first Pope said, a impressive brief meditation for Palm Sunday, specially relevant in the current times, hope you can all watch it:
↑ This is really FALSE and is wrong thinking. I copy here Praetorian's reply earlier on in this thread, which is the truth: No good can come from sin. Period. Sin causes rot in the soul and makes it resistant to Grace. "Fidelity" to remain in a sinful union would not be a Grace, it would be a curse. For a couple to remain in a long term state of mortal sin would just continue to make the couple resistant to the attempts by God to deliver Grace to them. Sin blunts a person's sense of right and wrong. The more mortal sins a person commits, the more they lose their bearing on what is right and wrong. Commit enough mortal sins and you can lose your faith entirely. It would be a Grace if God gave the couple the strength to leave the union or become chaste until marriage. To state that God would give a couple the Grace to continue in a state of perpetual mortal sin is against His nature. It is saying He would will mortal sin. This seems blasphemous to me. I know you did not mean anything bad by your comment Josephite , but perhaps unwittingly, you are misrepresenting the nature of Grace in your statement.
Josephite, I know you are a good Catholic and I know you see the problems in the Church and also try to be very charitable to the Holy Father, which is a good thing. That is what I try to do as well in my posts. I am sorry if my post caused offense to you, it was not my intention. My intention was simply to warn you and others about making declarations of heresy that are beyond our station in life. When I was first catching up on the thread and saw you wrote that the Pope is a heretic I didn't realize you were being facetious. I think I was just so shocked to see the statement that I didn't read the rest of your post carefully before responding. I agree with you that it is not the job of the laity to declare the Pope is a heretic. A person can make heretical statements without being a heretic. That being said let's look again at the statement in question. Here is the quote: "I’ve seen a lot of fidelity in these cohabitations, and I am sure that this is a real marriage, they have the grace of a real marriage because of their fidelity, but there are local superstitions, etc.” http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/most-marriages-today-are-invalid-pope-francis-suggests-51752/ As much as I don't like commenting on the Holy Father, I don't see how this sentence can be read any other way except to say that a cohabiting (out of wedlock and fornicating) couple is in a real marriage. What is a real marriage? If grace is coming from it, as indicated in the statement above, then it has to be a sacramental one. This statement is just not true. I am not saying it makes the Pope a heretic. It doesn't, but this statement is not in accord with Catholic teaching. Now did the Pope actually say this? I don't know. The article makes a direct quote that he did. Perhaps they mangled the translation or he was misquoted. I really have no idea. In any case, I am only commenting on the statement itself, not who said it. The statement in question is not what the Church teaches on cohabitation or civil "marriage". No "grace of a real marriage" comes from fornicating (which is sex outside of sacramental marriage). The quote would indicate sacramental grace, which is the "grace of a real marriage". So as a statement this is untrue. It doesn't matter who said it. Can a couple get actual graces while fornicating? Yes, they can also get them while murdering or stealing as well. Anyone can get an actual grace at any moment, but that is not what is being stated in the quote in question. The quote clearly states that cohabiting couples can get the "grace of a real marriage", which is sacramental grace. Let's forget for a moment that the Pope said this. Imagine a visiting priest came to your parish and gave a homily about the possible good of cohabitation in a civil marriage before having a sacramental marriage and made this statement. Would it sound Catholic? Of course not. I give the Holy Father every benefit of the doubt. Much more so than I would for anyone else on the planet. However it is our duty as Catholics, for the good of our brethren, to point out when a statement is not what the Church teaches. This statement is not in line with the clear Church teaching about cohabitation, civil "marriage", and sacramental marriage. That being said, I do not want to misquote the Holy Father, especially about something this serious. So I am only commenting on the statement itself. Not the veracity of whether the quote is accurate or not.
Pope St. JPII: http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-p..._jp-ii_exh_19811122_familiaris-consortio.html c) Catholics in Civil Marriages 82. There are increasing cases of Catholics who for ideological or practical reasons, prefer to contract a merely civil marriage, and who reject or at least defer religious marriage. Their situation cannot of course be likened to that of people simply living together without any bond at all, because in the present case there is at least a certain commitment to a properly-defined and probably stable state of life, even though the possibility of a future divorce is often present in the minds of those entering a civil marriage. By seeking public recognition of their bond on the part of the State, such couples show that they are ready to accept not only its advantages but also its obligations. Nevertheless, not even this situation is acceptable to the Church.
Also worth considering (the last phrase): http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm VI. THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM 1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
Thank you for this Jeanne. The most important sentence here talking about civil marriage by Catholics is of course the last one: "Nevertheless, not even this situation is acceptable to the Church"
One wonders, with all of the horror happening everywhere showing Satan's desperation now, knowing his time is short, is the Pope being fatalistic here or perhaps even wondering if he is the one to fulfill prophecies: (Before his visit to Fatima he will visit the country of today's diabolical act: "Pope Francis will travel to Egypt from 28 to 29 April 2017") Pope raises own mortality in rallying youth to lead church http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/0...rtality-in-rallying-youth-to-lead-church.html
P.S. to above comment. Could he say something in Egypt prior to the Fatima visit that would even more greatly endanger his visit there? He remains fearless in his contact with the people even in these most dangerous times.
It's my understanding that the Pope is referring to couples who have been married civilly: He said that in Argentina’s northeast countryside, couples have a child and live together. They have a civil wedding when the child goes to school, and when they become grandparents they “get married religiously.” “It’s a superstition, because marriage frightens the husband. It’s a superstition we have to overcome,” the Pope said. “I’ve seen a lot of fidelity in these cohabitations, and I am sure that this is a real marriage, they have the grace of a real marriage because of their fidelity, but there are local superstitions, etc.” http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/most-marriages-today-are-invalid-pope-francis-suggests-51752/ Since the Church doesn't recognize the civil marriages of Catholics, canonically speaking, they are just cohabitating. But Pope Francis and JPII are talking about the same kind of situation: a stable commitment, publicly and officially recognized, but not according to the form that is currently required by canon law for validity. It's definitely not acceptable to the Church, but it seems the Church does not consider it the same as fornication either. That seems like an important distinction in the context of the discussion.
"The quote clearly states that cohabiting couples can get the "grace of a real marriage", which is sacramental grace." No no no that is what you are saying.
Civil marriage is a form of fornication. It is a more stable and lasting form of fornication than say a one night stand, but it is still fornication. I think what is trying to be conveyed here though by Pope St. John Paul II in the paragraph you cited is that at least these people are showing some degree of goodwill even if it is not according to the Church parameters. In other words they might not be as far lost as someone who, for example, goes from woman to woman impregnating them and then leaving them to fend for themselves. The road to salvation is a continuum. People don't go from being horrible sinners to saints overnight (except in the case of some extreme saints).
Then kindly tell me what the "grace of a real marriage" is. We know it is grace, for the quote uses that terminology. We know grace comes in 2 kinds. Actual and Sacramental. The grace given to a couple in marriage is sacramental not actual. Is there some other kind of grace I am unaware of? I am serious Fallen Saint, what else could it be?
Lots of different graces...never never stated Sacramental Grace. Sacramental grace can only happen through the church. Grace is grace.
