Very interesting - Mt Carmel has been associated with Elijah the prophet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Carmel#Elijah "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord." That day is described as the burning of a great furnace, "... so that it will leave them neither root nor branch." (Malachi 3:19)
Ahhh, I thought that you might be or have been. Are you a lay associate now? I have just looked them up . Or are you supposed to be quiet about it? Is anyone else here in a Lay Order or Secular/third order? Or are you not supposed to discuss it, ooh... maybe this is a subject for another thread. I love hearing about all these things.
Am terrible for jumping from one subject to another, but just watched a beautiful video of John Paul 2 courtesy of Miriam. It reminded me of a dream that I had when I was 19. I found myself waiting by the side entrance of the vatican as I knew that Mother Theresa was in there with John Paul. There were crowds of people around the front, I was at the side as I wanted to be somewhere quiet. To my surprise, John Paul 2 and Mother Theresa chose to come out this way, away from the crowds as they were talking, I was watching them, and was happy to be at a distance.. though just a few feet away. Suddenly, Mother Theresa was standing in front of me, she took me by surprise. She cupped my face in her hands, looked directly into my eyes and said.. "Always remember that Jesus loves you." That was it... I woke up in astonishment..
Padraig, there is a whole book on the Major Marian Apparitions with Mary showing up as Our Lady of Mount Carmel, and it's relevance to the End Times. I read it years ago and I will find it when I get home so I can tell the name and author. It was wonderful!
Found it! "Her Glorious Title- Our Lady of Mount Carmel- Star of the Sea" by John M Haffert The back says: Over 50 years ago the of this book was given his mission by a Carmelite Brother who received it in a vision. His vision is told in the book The Brother and I published 1942." This book is very biblical, and I loved it the first time I read it which was years ago. I'm excited to read it again, as I remember some things I was watching for and maybe they have happened.
I don't know anything about Hungary. But I did do a quick research. Yes. Their constitution are of Christian values. This went into force 1st January 2012. But since then, there has been lots of opposition from 'civil' groups and opposition parties. (Typical). So, there could be something in that dream!
Thanks for your replies! I was thinking and prayingabout it last night. The Prophets Elijah (who was asscosciated closely with Mount Carmel....the model for Carmelites) and the propet Enoch were both caught up bodily into heaven. Kings 2 Elijah and Elisha... Now when the LORD was about to take Elijah up to heaven by a whirlwind, Elijah and Elisha were on their way from Gilgal. Elijah said to Elisha, "Stay here; for the LORD has sent me as far as Bethel." But Elisha said, "As the LORD lives, and as you yourself live, I will not leave you." So they went down to Bethel. The company of prophets who were in Bethel came out to Elisha, and said to him, "Do you know that today the LORD will take your master away from you?" And he said, "Yes, I know; keep silent." Elijah said to him, "Elisha, stay here; for the LORD has sent me to Jericho." But he said, "As the LORD lives, and as you yourself live, I will not leave you." So they came to Jericho. The company of prophets who were at Jericho drew near to Elisha, and said to him, "Do you know that today the LORD will take your master away from you?" And he answered, "Yes, I know; be silent." Then Elijah said to him, "Stay here; for the LORD has sent me to the Jordan." But he said, "As the LORD lives, and as you yourself live, I will not leave you." So the two of them went on. Fifty men of the company of prophets also went, and stood at some distance from them, as they both were standing by the Jordan. Then Elijah took his mantle and rolled it up, and struck the water; the water was parted to the one side and to the other, until the two of them crossed on dry ground. When they had crossed, Elijah said to Elisha, "Tell me what I may do for you, before I am taken from you." Elisha said, "Please let me inherit a double share of your spirit." He responded, "You have asked a hard thing; yet, if you see me as I am being taken from you, it will be granted you; if not, it will not." As they continued walking and talking, a chariot of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them, and Elijah ascended in a whirlwind into heaven. Elisha kept watching and crying out, "Father, father! The chariots of Israel and its horsemen!" But when he could no longer see him, he grasped his own clothes and tore them in two pieces. He picked up the mantle of Elijah that had fallen from him, and went back and stood on the bank of the Jordan. He took the mantle of Elijah that had fallen from him, and struck the water, saying, "Where is the LORD, the God of Elijah?" When he had struck the water, the water was parted to the one side and to the other, and Elisha went over. When the company of prophets who were at Jericho saw him at a distance, they declared, "The spirit of Elijah rests on Elisha." They came to meet him and bowed to the ground before him. They said to him, "See now, we have fifty strong men among your servants; please let them go and seek your master; it may be that the spirit of the LORD has caught him up and thrown him down on some mountain or into some valley." He responded, "No, do not send them." But when they urged him until he was ashamed, he said, "Send them." So they sent fifty men who searched for three days but did not find him. When they came back to him (he had remained at Jericho), he said to them, "Did I not say to you, Do not go?" Now the people of the city said to Elisha, "The location of this city is good, as my lord sees; but the water is bad, and the land is unfruitful." He said, "Bring me a new bowl, and put salt in it." So they brought it to him. Then he went to the spring of water and threw the salt into it, and said, "Thus says the LORD, I have made this water wholesome; from now on neither death nor miscarriage shall come from it." So the water has been wholesome to this day, according to the word that Elisha spoke. He went up from there to Bethel; and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, "Go away, baldhead! Go away, baldhead!" When he turned around and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two she-bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys. From there he went on to Mount Carmel, and then returned to Samaria. Mount Carmel Now in being caught up into heaven they are part of a Triumpherate with Mary, Queen of Apostles, who was also caught up into heaven at the Assumption. On looking I found this from Protestant sources. 'Many of the early Christians, likewise Irenaeus; Tertullian & Hippolytus were believing that Enoch & Elijah will be the 2 tribulation witnesses! Quote: ...And I say to you, O my brethren, that they also, Enoch and Elias [Elijah], most toward the end of time return into the world and die - in the day, namely of commotion, of terror, of perplexity, and affliction. For Anti-christ will slay four bodies, and will poor out their blood like water. {The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 8, Page 394; http://www.bible.ca/history/fathers/) Question: "Who are the two witnesses in the book of Revelation?" Answer: There are three primary viewpoints on the identity of the two witnesses in Revelation 11:3-12: (1) Moses and Elijah, (2) Enoch and Elijah, (3) two unknown believers whom God calls to be His witnesses in the end times. (1) Moses and Elijah are seen as possibilities for the two witnesses due to the witnesses' power to turn water into blood (Revelation 11:6), which Moses is known for (Exodus chapter 7), and their power to destroy people with fire (Revelation 11:5), which Elijah is known for (2 Kings chapter 1). Also giving strength to this view is the fact that Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus at the transfiguration (Matthew 17:3-4). Further, Jewish tradition expected Moses and Elijah to return in the future. Malachi 4:5 predicted the return of Elijah, and the Jews believed that God’s promise to raise up a prophet like Moses (Deuteronomy 18:15, 18) necessitated his return. (2) Enoch and Elijah are seen as possibilities for the two witnesses because they are the two individuals whom God has taken to heaven apart from experiencing death (Genesis 5:23; 2 Kings 2:11). The fact that neither Enoch or Elijah have experienced death seems to qualify them to experience death and resurrection, as the two witnesses experience (Revelation 11:7-12). Proponents of this view claim that Hebrews 9:27 (all men die once) disqualifies Moses from being one of the two witnesses, as Moses has died once already (Deuteronomy 34:5). However, there are several others in the Bible who died twice—e.g., Lazarus, Dorcas, and the daughter of the synagogue ruler—so there is really no reason why Moses should be eliminated on this basis. But I wonder if the two witnesses, propesied in Revelation to come during the Revelation might be MAry as Queen of Prophets and ELijah? Hence the Carmel/Carmelite link? From a Catholic view point that would amke more sense.
I'm not wanting to get off the subject. And I know this may seem a really dumb question. But.... "The Transfiguration". Padraig mentioned it above. This is something I have never understood. Can someone please explain, What's the meaning of the Transfiguration?
It is when Elijah and Moses appeared to Jesus to tell him of his forthcoming passion. Matthew 17:1-10 Six days later, Jesus took with him Peter and James and his brother John and led them to a high mountain (what is it with God and mountains ) where they could be alone. There in their presence he was transfigured: his face shone like the sun and his clothes became as white as the light. Suddenly Moses and Elijah appeared to them; they were talking with him. Then Peter spoke to Jesus "Lord", he said, "it is wonderful for us to be here; if you wish I will make three tents here, one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah. He was still speaking when suddenly a bright cloud covered them with shadow, and from the cloud came a voice which said "This is my son, the Beloved; he enjoys my favor, listen to him. When they heard this, the disciples fell on their faces, overcome with fear. But Jesus came up and touched them. "Stand up," he said "do not be afraid". And when they raised their eyes they saw no one but only Jesus. As they came down from the mountain Jesus gave them this order. "Tell no one about the vision until The Son of Man has risen from the dead". And the disciples put this question to him " Why then do the scribes say that Elijah has to come first?" "True," he replied, "Elijah is to come to see that everything is once more as it should be; however, I tell you that Elijah has come already and they did not recognise him but treated him as they pleased; and the Son of Man will suffers similarly at their hands." The disciples understood then that he had been speaking of John the Baptist.
I just want to make sure I have this right. Didn't Jesus know about His coming passion until Elijah and Moses appeared and told Him? "This is my son, the Beloved "etc... So was Peter and James there so they could understand the Divinity of Jesus? Sorry, this has always had me wondering and I just want to be clear.
He knew that he had come for a mission. He knew that God was indeed His father, I would have thought, and theologians say that his destiny would have been hidden from him whilst he was a small babe learning the difference between right and wrong. There is reference to this in revelations and the old testament I think. Revelations am sure.. Old Testament, cannot guarantee 100% on, though many many prophecies relating to Jesus. In fact... am quite sure is mentioned.. Anyway, by the time He was 12, things were becoming more clear, and although He was always aware who He was, now He is aware of his mission. Incidentally, Mother Mary "lost" Jesus for three days, to gain us the graces of finding him when we lose him. He actually gave a first prophecy of his passion in Matthew 16:21-23 I would have said that Elijah and Moses would have come to agree with him and to say Yes Jesus the time has come. Also, they came to support him spiritually in this great mission, as a witness to the two apostles so that they could testify to Jesus truly being the Son of God, and I would say to console him. The Father also took the opportunity to cry aloud of His great love for Jesus and to let the apostles know this, and to know how Holy and how Beautiful was His son. You can hear the Father's love in this... Crying out... "THIS IS MY SON". Every person knows that pride. Maybe a father when his son scores a goal, or a mother whose child is doing so well in a ballet recital or acting in a school play, even when our children have completed their exams, and we want to share how proud we are.. God the Father did exactly this, whilst also giving Jesus much courage.. Hope that makes sense,
Yes. That does make sense. Every time the reading which talks about the Transfiguration came up, the priest never explained it in his homily. Sorry Padraig for getting off the subject. But I had to sort that out so I could understand what you were saying.
One of the biggest miracles of the Bible is Elijah on top of Mount Carmel. There is a 3 year drought, and the people of Israel are worshiping the gods of Baal. On top of Mt Carmel they assembled, and 850 priests of Baal. Elijah challenged the people and the priest of Baal to prove thier god. Both camps prepared their sacrifice then poured water over and around it and agreed that whatever sacrifice God lit the fire for and consumed, was the true God. Nothing happened with Baal, and they prayed and danced for hours. (Elijah taunted them ) Then Elijah' s turn, he said a small prayer, and fire came down from heaven, consumed the sacrifice of Elijah, and also consumed all the water and the water in the trench. The people all shouted "The LORD IS GOD!!!!" and killed all the priests of Baal. This is like the miracle of Fatima, where the sun came down, and dried up all the rain!
The Eastern Churhes emphasise the Transfiguration much more than we do. Their mystical theology centres on the Resurrection ; ours on the Passion. There was a Orthodox saint form the 1800's St Seraphim of Sarov. There is a lovely story told of him .A jouranlist came to see him in his monastery and asked him to descirbe the workings of the Holy Spirit in our souls, transforming us. Then as the journalist watched St Sepraphim's face was transfigured into a ball of light!! I'll try to find the story. He also fed wild bears by hand; wonderful man.
Thanks again for the info regarding The Transfiguration. This morning we did the 'Luminous Mysteries'. I managed to have a better connection to The Transfiguation. There is so much learning I need to do regarding Elijha and Mount Carmel. Keep the info coming.
You are very welcome Jane, you are very right, it is a very obscure mystery. I never knew what this mystery was either, until I found it in the Bible a few years back.
