Spirit Digest openly attacking the Pope.

I see the lady who runs, 'Spirit Digest' , is now openly and ferociously attacking the Holy Father and accusing him of apostasy. I always was uneasy about her. She will not be on my Christmas card list.

Dreadful stuff. Some loyalty, some obedience. Some Catholic.

http://spirit-digest.com/

 

Right. I'll be removing that site from my bookmarks.

 

Could have some interesting discussion on this one. But whats the rules Padraig? Are we allowed to vent our confusion? our fears?

 

I like the advice found below which is to wait for a good translation from the original Italian. Here is just once excerpt of how a poor translation changes the context:

"If “everyone has his own idea of good and evil and must choose to follow the good and fight evil as he conceives them,” is the Pope saying that there is no such thing as objective truth, or objective right or wrong? This is where it is really, really helpful to know Italian: “Ciascuno di noi ha una sua visione del Bene e anche del Male. Noi dobbiamo incitarlo a procedere verso quello che lui pensa sia il Bene” is more literally (and helpfully?) translated as “Each one of us has his/her own vision of the Good or even of Evil. We must encourage him/her to move toward that which he/she sees as the Good.” The Pope is not leveling the difference between truth and untruth, right and wrong: he is saying that we all have a duty to encourage people to pursue the Good, knowing that the true Good will not fail to manifest himself, even if “through a glass darkly.”"

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/theanc...ting-francis-interview-with-eugenio-scalfari/

I also like how this self classified orthodox-conservative Catholic has approached what is obviously a challenge for him . He says very clearly "He is Peter". He goes onto say:
Unless the day comes where he breaks with defined teaching, he will have my respect and obedience, and I will keep any transient dyspeptic moments to myself.

Yes, there is great potential for misunderstanding when he speaks off the cuff, but ultimately, little room for harm. Those whose faith is well-informed and rock-solid cannot be rattled.

Those who ridiculed John Paul and Benedict may hear him when the truth is spoken in a different way. At worst, they will simply look for any justification to persist in their unbelief.

Those who are weak will need us to be Francis’ defenders, to explicate his teaching and show its continuity with all that has gone before. It is the Parable of the Sower.

Change is coming with this pope, much needed change. He comes from those people below the equator who have been largely invisible to us in the faithless north. He speaks for them, and from their experience of the Church. He was elected to effect the changes that Benedict saw as necessary, but was too infirm to effect.

The coin of the realm in all of this will be faith and obedience, especially from those of us who revere John Paul and Benedict, who count ourselves the orthodox backbone of the Church. This is no time for that backbone to become arthritic.

Francis is going to need every one of us.

I’m with Peter.

http://gerardnadal.com/2013/10/01/pope-francisrupture-vs-change/

 

This is a Pope like no other. So of course he challenges us; well at least he certainly challenges me. I would say maybe not since the time of St Gregory the Great have we had such a Pontiff.

I wrote a nasty rant on the forum about him a few weeks ago , then my conscience bothered me, I went to read what he really said , found it was not what the media reported and had to rush to delete my fuming post as quick as I could.

So , yes i understand folks wanting to discuss all this, that's fine.

But the lady who runs Spirit Digest has gone into full out Rottweiler aggressive full on attack mode....well no. This is a Catholic forum and I couldn't have that on my conscience.


However it fine to discuss, debate dialogue and question. I have learnt a lot myself from discussions regarding Pope Francis. In fact I am sure the Holy Father would encourage this himself.

But not kinda kill, kill, kill stuff...a la 'Spirit Digest', no, there has to be a red line somewhere.
.

 

I'll admit, I do not understand this Pope. However, I will remain faithful to him unless or until he dissents on a church doctrine. I have dealt with social justice priests for the past 40 years, so I understand how they think. They often walk on the edge of dissent, but usually stop short of it publicly. I hope and pray that Francis, unlike the pastors in my life, will not formally dissent on church doctrine. This to me is the 'line in the sand'.

 

He said recently that he , 'Loves mystics'. This I take as a very good sign. It's not the kind of thing a Liberal would ever say in a million years.

Also he has taken the whip to some in the Vatican as Jesus did to the money lenders in the Temple. Another good sign. Entertaining to read. I could just see them squirming.

Its hard to recall he has hardly even warmed the Seat of the Chair Peter. So much in such a sort time. Hard to keep up with.

 

Pope Francis is so like Jesus - misunderstood!

 

Fatima I bring this up often on this forum but I have to question here again. I understand that we can't go back on church doctrine but what if the doctrine was created under the rule of Stan and the 100 years of evil he was allowed to introduce into the beloved church per Pope Leo's vision? Take into account the discussion on this forum recently about how we should take communion. You see that Popes Benedict and Francis were and or want it back to the mouth only. Why is this? Why did Saint Pio always take it on the tongue and not the hand? Is this some sort of change and evil that Stan brought about? Have we lost our humble respect in how we deal with the consecrated host? Have we lost graces because of how most Catholics are taking communion by the hand or even by receiving it from someone other than the priest who consecrated it?

I am in no way saying that this is what we should be looking for and questioning all church doctrine and changes of the last 100 years because surely there has been protection and guidance by the Holy Spirit and Mary, but I do have to wonder if the 100 year reign has occurred (which I beleive has and is either over or will be over soon) then there would be a lot of problems created in the church for a 100 year period. How much influence did Stan have for 100 years? How much damage was done? How many graces have we lost in this 100 years? These are the big thoughts that run through my head. 100 years is a long time to hurt the flock of St. Peter. And boy has the church been hurt and changed in these last 100 years.

 

Andy,

Excellent points. Questions of church doctrine vs dogma/disciplines? I could go on and on about what happened here in Chicago under Bernadin for 30 years, how about the entire churce here in USA under his watch for 30 years. One could say we were in defacto schism.

 

I admit to continue to feeling very disturbed about many things that the Pope has said while acknowledging that is has certainly not all been 'bad news.
In this latest interview he praised the deceased Jesuit Cardinal Martini who was reputed to be the most 'liberal' prelate in the Church (at least I hope that there aren't any more liberal than he was!). Martini also liked to communicate through interviews and books rather than official documents and had a reputation for being 'subtle and opaque' (ring any bells?). He wrote one book damning 'Humanae Vitae' which he considered to be damaging to those trying to live Christian lives and to the Church and the World. He wanted women priests, an end to mandatory celibacy and all the other usual items on the liberal 'shopping list' and said that the Church was 200 years behind the times (or the world, I suppose).
When the Pope praised Martini, he provided a clear signal that will be taken up by those who share the Cardinal's views. I'm sorry but I regard this signal as unmissable to Martini's 'fans'. Interestingly the Pope, in his recent 12,000 word interview quoted Martini without mentioning his name when he queried the need to deny Communion to a woman who was married then divorced and re-marred happily. If you read Martini's last interview, you will see exactly the same circumstances described although the Pope also added an abortion to the story in his own interview.

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/209045?eng=y

 

I will say this Steve he has disturbed me in what may be a very good way.

I have started asking myself some very deep questions about how I am living the Gospel message with my life. Especially what I am doing for those who do not believe and the poor.

I do this forum as an apostolate which is fine. But Pope Francis has me wondering if this is enough. I must pray ask Our Lady.

God forgive me I am at an age when I feel settled and don't want to try....

but the Pope was just about to retire before he got the Pontiff's job,,so

 

I agree, Garabandal.

Pope Francis is soooooooooo like Jesus that it's very likely that he is going to have the same end, I think.

He sounds "simple" and accessible, but there is a huge depth and strength behind his simplicity. I do believe that he is being led by the Spirit. He has absolutely no fear or second thought kind of attitude.

Even the thing about not giving interviews and now we are having one every couple of days - so to speak- it may well be that the Spirit is guiding.

Some days ago there was this criticism about him saying that he doesn't really know where he is going. For some this is unacceptable. And yet this may be also a specific characteristic of someone really led by the Spirit and used to serious discernment. The Spirit works this way, it gives you light for just a little step at a time, and only seldom -or in retrospect- do you get a bigger picture.

We forget easily that every interview has a specific partner of the dialogue where the context is highly significant to understand what the Pope is talking about. It's really mind blowing that we think of ourselves as entitled and able to judge the Pope in this way every other day of the week .... as if we had the baggage required for such a thing. Just because we can express our opinions freely for the whole world to read doesn't make us fit and accurate in what we judge or comment upon.

It wouldn't do us harm to remember that we will have to respond to God about our judgments and criticism on the Pope and our hierarchy. Just because this is a friendly forum, it doesn't make it automatically "right" and morally sound to launch all kinds of negative opinions on many matters that are beyond our scope.

With this I don't try to suppress dialogue, but there are many ways of approaching difficulties in understanding, confusion, etc. It might be advisable for those of us who believe so strongly on the immutable value of Church doctrine to live it out in our behavior and not only in our opinions (re: charity, prudence, and respect toward the topic/person we have an opinion we want to express).

And just let's remember also: Jesus DID DISTURB EVERYONE: Peter, the Apostles, the disciples, the pharisees, the conservatives, the liberals, the political leaders, the revolutionaries, EVERYONE (and they didn't have Internet to now by the minute what he said every day )

Our subtle and easy but permanent questioning and criticizing on keeping or removing allegiance or not to the Pope it seems to me is a sad sign of how much the culture we live in is soaked in our souls and minds even if we consider ourselves "the little remnant", the "insiders".

As always, let us pray for each other and for our forum. Peace!

 

Hi Padraig, do you believe:

1. That the greatest problems in the world today are youth unemployment and loneliness in old age? (Strange that Our Lady never seems to have mentioned the fact but states that our problems are mainly spiritual and that all practical problems could be resolved if enough people turned to God and prayed)
2. That the Church has shown itself to be 'obsessed' with abortion, homosexuality and other sexual sins? (Most orthodox Catholic seem to be aware that bishops and priests keep well away from these topics, in general, for a quiet life).
3. That the conscience stands above every other measure of what is right and wrong? (Very troubling)
4. That an atheist who follows his/her conscience (which is not by definition 'informed') is going to heaven? (Each of us has a vision of good and of evil. We have to encourage people to move towards what they think is Good”)
5. That it is heretical (Pelagean) to count prayers? (what is a Rosary but a spiritual abacus)?
6. That Cardinal Martini was an admirable Churchman? (He called Pope Paul VI a liar, decried Humanae Vitae and insistently called for every possible 'reform' that the 'liberals' crave).
7. That we must not proselytize (dictionary definition: 'to convert or attempt to convert').

It's late, I'll leave it there for now.

I predict that the Pope will change the rules on celibacy within the next twelve months and that some areas of dogma will be allowed to 'fall into disuse' shortly thereafter because of informal instructions/hints that they not be enforced. Anyone who has been in the armed forces know that some orders just don't get obeyed, if enough soldiers and officers regard them as expendable/inconvenient, nothing is done to enforce them. This has been the case in the Church for years and is now getting implied approval from the very top.

 

That was so beautifully said woman clothed with sun!

 

Steve,

Last year, at great personal cost, I left the religion of my fathers and was baptized in the Catholic Church. I did so because I believe the promise Jesus made to Peter. Did I make a mistake? If the bishop of Rome can lead the entire church astray into apostasy then maybe the Eastern Orthodox are right after all, except in that case its not just Francis that's the problem, its all the popes for the last 1000 years.

 

Phillip, when we have great Cardinals talk like this ,what do you think it means

On March 17, 1990 Cardinal Oddi, who was a personal friend of Pope John XXIII and who had spoken to him regarding the Secret, gave the following testimony to Italian journalist Lucio Brunelli in the journal Il Sabato:

"It [the Third Secret] has nothing to do with Gorbachev. The Blessed Virgin was alerting us against apostasy in the Church." The Cardinal went on to say that "I would not be surprised if the Third Secret alluded to dark times for the Church: grave confusions and troubling apostasies within Catholicism itself...." [5] ​

​

The Bishop of Rome cannot lead the entire church of God astray.We have the Good Lords promise on that.​

"'In Portugal, the dogma of the faith will always be preserved'. This sentence in all clarity implies the critical state of the faith which will befall other nations. That is to say that there will be a crisis of faith, while Portugal will save its faith". "Therefore", Father Alonso asserts, "in the period which precedes the great Triumph of the Heart of Mary, the terrible things which are the object of the third part of the Secret, will occur. Which ones? If, 'In Portugal, the dogmas of faith will always be preserved,' one can deduce from it with perfect clarity that in other parts of the Church these dogmas either are going to become obscure or else even be lost. Thus it is quite possible that in this ...period which is in question, ... the text makes concrete reference to the negligence of the pastors themselves.... One conclusion does indeed seem to be beyond question: the content of the unpublished part of the Secret does not refer to new wars or political upheavals, but to happenings of a religious and intra-Church character, which of their nature are still more grave.

 

E. Cardinal Pacelli:
I am worried by the Blessed Virgin’s messages to Lucy of Fatima. This persistence of Mary about the dangers which menace the Church is a divine warning against the suicide of altering the Faith, in Her liturgy, Her theology and Her soul…. I hear all around me innovators who wish to dismantle the Sacred Chapel, destroy the universal flame of the Church, reject her ornaments and make her feel remorse for her historical past.
A day will come when the civilized world will deny its God, when the Church will doubt as Peter doubted. She will be tempted to believe that man has become God. In our churches, Christians will search in vain for the red lamp where God awaits them. Like Mary Magdalene, weeping before the empty tomb, they will ask, “Where have they taken Him?”
E. Cardinal Pacelli said this in 1931. He became Pope Pius XII in 1939.​

 

Steve God was wise enough not to have chosen me as Pope. My spirituality is very, very different from his own. The fact that his spirituality his sense of what is important for the Church at this time is very different from mine. But that is fine. If we are all the same then heaven would be boring.

Pope Paul 6th famously said that the Pope does not have a mission that the Church is Mission. The Pope incarnates this in his own person. He is a dynamic Apostle like the first twelve not someone who wanders off like me up the mountains and out into the desert places to pray.

He is a person for others.

Padre Pio said , 'Pray and trust' I could paraphrase that for the Papacy. We must pray , trust be obedient and follow. This lies at the very heart of being a Catholic; this spiritual obedience.

I struggle with this of course. I guess we all do. But Still I pray and trust.
The fact that his spirituality is so different from mine does not alarm me. The Church and the world needs a dynamic apostle rather than a boring old contemplative and mystic like me.

We have the reassurance of scripture and the teachings of the Church to support us and give us all the confidence we need:

Matthew 16:18

And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

When the Pope (1) intends to teach (2) by virtue of his supreme authority (3) on a matter of faith and morals (4) to the whole Church, he is preserved by the Holy Spirit from error. His teaching act is therefore called "infallible" and the teaching which he articulates is termed "irreformable".

 

http://faithreasonandhealth.blogspot.ca/2013/09/ask-vladimir-putin-to-request.html

Ask Vladimir Putin to request the consecration of Russia this October 13th !!

(SOMEONE OUT THERE HAS MORE FAITH THAN I DO...LOL)