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The secrets of Fatima, can be reconciled to a loving God (theodicity)?

Discussion in 'Positive Critique' started by jerry, May 7, 2013.

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jerry Guest

An interesting discussion has begun in the thread Fr Amorth and Fatima.
I am grateful to Jose for in a sense making the discussion 'catch light'.
I read the secrets and just accepted the consequences. Jose has made me aware that i have not thought enough on it.

Given that i am at this moment able to access my pc i have decided to start a fresh thread and copy the relevant posts (or as many as i can before i have to log off ) i've placed it in positive critique because i'm confident that we should be able to work through the problem.

jerry, May 7, 2013

#1
jerry Guest

Jose said:

I find very difficult to believe that the WWII was a consequence of not having obeyed the message of a private revelation. How many people should have obeyed? people from Portugal only or the rest of the world? Furthermore I do not believe in a God Who makes the future of humanity, Christianity and the spreading of atheism to depend on a solemn act of Consecration by the Pope of a particular nation. It does not make sense to me. I cannot understand a father or a mother threatening their children with terrible bad things if they are not publicly "consecrated" to them. I understand from this video that F. Amorth is blaming the Popes that did not answer the call of the Virgin. When he speaks about following the mandate of the Virigin about the consecration it is not me or none of you who was in charge of deciding doing so, but the Pope.. and, apparently, they did not do it properly. So, those Popes are responsible due to their disobedience for the negative consequences for the rest of the humanity. Sorry, but I cannot believe this. I can understand that many bad things occurring to humanity are consequence of our sins but if God or the Virgin are allowing bad happening to us (like the death of 25 million people, also innocent people among them) if we do not do things like praying the rosary or consecrating Russia to them.. well.... this is not the kind of god I think God is. Definitively not acting as a father
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jerry, May 7, 2013

#2
jerry Guest

Fatima said:

jose, it is the same God that gave conditions throughout all of scripture through warnings. Some heeded the warnings, some did not. Read the story of Job, Jonah and Nineveh, Noah and the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah. It is the same God who gave an offer through His mother at Fatima to repent or WWII would come during the reign of Pius XI. Most recently, in Rwanda, where our Blessed Mother warned what would happend if people did not do the will of God (1 million dead in 3 months). I could go on and on with expamples, but it is clear to me that our God warns us, because he is all merciful...but just in the end. What a loving Father we have!!!!
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jerry, May 7, 2013

#3
jerry Guest

Jose said:

Fatima, I agree that God warns us from the consequences of our evil acts but what I said here is something different. Answer, please, this question.

Has God allowed the spreading of atheism and its ideas from Russia because the Popes since 1917 did not fulfill the requests from our Blessed Mother to consecrate this country to her?
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jerry, May 7, 2013

#4
jerry Guest

Jose said:

RantingCatholicMom said:

That is exactly what Fr. Amorth is saying. And it is true. Mary told us at Fatima how to stem the tide of evil with prayer. Pope Leo XIII saw the devil being given full sway for a century. This is our century. Mary came to tell us what weapons would be most effective in this battle. Thousands of people saw the Miracle of the Sun in Fatima. The pictures were carried in newspapers all over the world. Thousands were aware of what needed to be done, and knew what they needed to share with others.

Just because Popes make some major mistakes doesn't mean that they were not Holy men. They, like us, can be swayed by others. Rather than viewing it as a punishment from God because the Popes didn't act, I see this as Satan using all his powers to stop an act that would destroy his influence. If you read Father Amorth's books, this is clearly what he believes.
RantingCatholicMom, then your answer is that due to the failure of the last 9 Popes that did not consecrate specifically Russia to our Blessed Mother, atheism, abortion and all those bad things were spreading through the world. Right?

Sorry, but it does not make sense to me. That was a private revelation and I cannot see God punishing or, if you like, "not-avoiding" the bad to the whole of His children just because a couple of people did not accomplish a request from a private revelation. Nor can I accept the development of the WWII being avoidable by God and occurring just as a general consequence of our sins (the humanity) and not of those who really pursued it.
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jerry, May 7, 2013

#5
jerry Guest

Jose said:

padraig said:

Well, often things that seem small but are really big Jose. Look at the archangel Gabriel who was sent to a peasant girl in Nazareth with a simply request, that she should have a child.

Now imagine Mary had just said, 'No', what would the consequences have been? All this from a small, 'Yes'.
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You know me, Padraig, I am agnostic regarding apparitions and the Church does not force me to believe them.
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jerry, May 7, 2013

#6
jerry Guest

Jose said:

Now, seriously, I have a problem with the theological derivations of this quote

"To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of Reparation on the First Saturdays. If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred, the Holy Father will have much to suffer, various nations will be annihilated. In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me and she will be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world."
and of this one:

The war is going to end; but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the pontificate of Pius XI.When you see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that he is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father.
I have to leave now, I will check later your answers...
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jerry, May 7, 2013

#7
jerry Guest

Mac said:

1. What is meant by “the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary”?
A: At Fatima, on July 13, 1917, Our Lady told Sister Lucy that “God is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father. To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the Communions of reparation and for the consecration of Russia to My Immaculate Heart ... In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph.”
Our Lady’s request is very simple: Russia—the fount of so much evil in the 20th Century—must be set apart and made sacred by its consecration to the Mother of God.

2. Why is it necessary to consecrate Russia in particular?
A: Because God wills it. As Our Lady told Sister Lucy at Fatima: “Russia will be the instrument of chastisement chosen by Heaven to punish the whole world if we do not beforehand obtain the conversion of that poor nation ...”

And as Sister Lucy disclosed in her published memoirs and letters, Our Lord Himself confided to her that He would not convert Russia unless the consecration were done, “Because I want My whole Church to recognize that consecration as a triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, so that it may extend its cult later on, and put the devotion to this Immaculate Heart beside the devotion to My Sacred Heart.”

Sister Lucy has explained that because Russia is a well-defined territory, the conversion of Russia after its consecration to the Immaculate Heart would be undeniable proof that the conversion resulted from the consecration and nothing else. The establishment in the world of devotion to the Immaculate Heart would thus be confirmed by God Himself in the most dramatic manner.

3. How exactly is this consecration supposed to be accomplished?
A: True to Her word at Fatima, Our Lady appeared to Sister Lucy at Tuy, Spain, on June 13, 1929, to say that: “The moment has come when God asks the Holy Father to make, in union with all the bishops of the world, the consecration of Russia to My Immaculate Heart, promising to save it by this means.” The phrase “by this means” is crucial, because it signifies that the consecration is not merely a symbol of the coming conversion of Russia, but the very means by which it will be accomplished. Thus, without the act of consecration there will be no conversion of Russia, and without the conversion of Russia, Russia’s errors will continue to infest the world, producing the persecution of the Church, the martyrdom of the good, the suffering of the Holy Father and ultimately the annihilation of nations forewarned at Fatima.

Over the ensuing decades, Sister Lucy has explained time and again that the act of consecration requires that the Pope “choose a date upon which His Holiness commands the bishops of the entire world to make, each in his own Cathedral, and at the same time as the Pope, a solemn and public ceremony of Reparation and consecration of Russia ...”

4. But isn’t Fatima just a private apparition no Catholic has to believe?
A: Far from it. The apparitions at Fatima were confirmed by a public miracle witnessed by 70,000 people—the Miracle of the Sun. Pope John Paul II himself declared at Fatima in 1982 that the Message of Fatima“imposes an obligation on the Church”, and he publicly attributed to Our Lady of Fatima his escape from death in the assassination attempt of May 13, 1981—the very anniversary of Our Lady of Fatima.

5. Didn’t the Pope succeed in performing the consecration of Russia in 1984?
A: No. As Sister Lucy herself declared in a September 1985 interview,the attempted consecration of March 25, 1984, did not satisfy Our Lady’s requests because “there was no participation of the bishops and there was no mention of Russia.” In consecrating the world in general on that date without mentioning Russia, the Holy Father himself acknowledged in the presence of tens of thousands of witnesses, both during and after the ceremony, that the people of Russia were still “awaiting our consecration and confiding.” The next day these statements were reported in the Pope’s own newspaper, L’Osservatore Romano, and the Italian Bishops’ publication, Avvenire.

6. Wasn’t the consecration of the world by the Pope in 1984 enough to fulfill Our Lady’s request?
A: No. For her entire life since the apparitions of Our Lady of Fatima, Sister Lucy has insisted that Russia must be specifically mentioned.
For example, in a 1978 interview with her confidant, Father Umberto Pasquale, and in a letter to Father Pasquale in 1980, Sister Lucy was asked the question: “Has Our Lady ever spoken to you about the consecration of the world?” During the interview, Sister Lucy answered:

“No, Father Umberto! Never! At the Cova da Iria in 1917 Our Lady promised: ‘I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia ...’ In 1929, at Tuy, as She had promised, Our Lady came to tell me that the moment had come to ask the Holy Father for the consecration of that country.”

And, in the 1980 letter (dated April 13 of that year), Sister Lucy confirmed what she had said in the interview, stating in her own handwriting that “Our Lady of Fatima, in Her request, referred only to the consecration of Russia.” Both the 1978 interview and the 1980 letter (photographically reproduced) were published in the May 12, 1982, Italian edition of L’Osservatore Romano.

Does not our own common sense tell us that if Our Lady of Fatima requested the consecration of Russia, then Russia must at least be mentioned in the act of consecration? We might also reasonably ask what possible reason there could be for not uttering one simple word—Russia—in the act of consecrating Russia. No explanation has ever been given for this mysterious omission in the attempted consecrations of 1982 and 1984.
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jerry, May 7, 2013

#8
Fatima Guest

Post #2 above is not my quote, rather from jose.

Fatima, May 7, 2013

#9
jerry Guest

Mac said:

7. Isn’t it too late for the consecration of Russia anyway, since Russia’s errors have already spread throughout the world?
A: No! As Our Lord Himself confided to Sister Lucy at Rianjo in August of 1931: “They did not wish to heed My request! ... Like the King of France, they will repent of it, and they will do it, but it will be late.Russia will already have spread its errors in the world ...”
So the consecration will ultimately be done, and, as Our Lady promised at Fatima, “In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to Me, which will be converted, and a period of peace will be given to mankind.” Our Lord Himself confided to Sister Lucy, regarding the consecration, that “It is never too late to have recourse to Jesus and Mary.”

8. What is so urgent about the consecration now?
A: As Our Lady warned at Fatima: “If My requests are not granted, Russia will spread its errors throughout the world, raising up wars and persecutions against the Church. The good will be martyred, the Holy Father will have much to suffer, and various nations will be annihilated.”
We have yet to witness the annihilation of nations foretold at Fatima. Must we wait until it happens before we finally do exactly what Our Lady commanded us to do in God’s name? In view of the accelerating decline of morality and the disintegration of social order around the world, simple prudence should tell us that we cannot delay even one moment longer the consecration of Russia, and only Russia, to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

9. But if the Pope feels he has done the consecration, what right does anyone have to question him?
A: The Pope has never publicly stated to all the members of the Church that he has performed the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. On the contrary, the Pope’s words as quoted inL’Osservatore Romano demonstrate that he knows the consecration has yet to be done.

In view of this, the faithful have every right to petition their Pope for the definitive consecration of Russia. In fact, the God-given right of the faithful to petition the Supreme Pontiff in matters affecting the good of the Church was infallibly defined as Catholic doctrine by two ecumenical councils: Vatican I (1870) and the Second Council of Lyons (1274), and is also guaranteed by the current Code of Canon Law (Canon 212).

The good of the Church and the safety of the whole world demand absolute certainty that the requests of Our Lady of Fatima have been carried out. The matter will be settled only when the definitive consecration is performed, or when the Pope declares in an official, binding way to the whole Church that he has already performed the consecration in a manner sufficient to satisfy Our Lady’s requests. Neither event has occurred, and therefore the matter remains open to petitions by the faithful, who have every right to address a matter of such obvious importance for the Church and the world.
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jerry, May 7, 2013

#10
jerry Guest

Fatima said: ↑

Post #2 above is not my quote, rather from jose.
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thanks; if you spot any other errors - i'm in a rush to complete before i must leave home

jerry, May 7, 2013

#11
jerry Guest

garabandal said:

jose said: ↑

You know me, Padraig, I am agnostic regarding apparitions and the Church does not force me to believe them.
Jose - I notice the wink but as a brother in Christ & in Christian charity I am concerned for your thinking in regards to prophecy. You are too dismissive of Fatima because it does not fit in line with your thinking of God. You cannot just dismiss Fatima because it does not fit into your world-view. God punishes cities and nations because of sin [Sodom & Gommorah] and he spares cities and nations who repent [Nineveh]. Our Lady revealed at Fatima that the wars were punishments for the sins of the age. God does punish sin because God is Just. The first secret of Fatima also confirms Catholic teaching that individual sinners are punished in an everlasting fire'.

‘You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go'.

Do not offend Our Lord any more; He is already much offended,”

We are free to reject the prophecies of Fatima but we do not possess the right to do so. For there is nothing contrary to Catholic teaching and belief in authentic apparitions and prophecy.

We are so influenced by modern ideas and modernism that we find it difficult to discern the workings of God and thus have a false understanding of freedom. The mystical is as real as the physical for we worship a God the Maker of all things visible and invisible. The Justice of God is the same as the Mercy of God. If you believe in His Mercy then you must believe in His Justice.

He who receives pardon, says St. Augustine, is pardoned through the pure mercy of God; and they who are chastised, are justly punished.

Apparitions add nothing to the deposit of faith because all has been revealed but what they do is give us perspective on the Faith for the times that we are living in. St Paul tells us that 'he who speaks prophecies speaks to men for edification and encouragement and consolation'. In addition he warns us 'not to despise or dismiss prophecies' or 'treat them with contempt'. In dismissing the words of Fatima you are in danger of doing exactly that. Sister Lucia has been raised to the altar of holiness and her words and actions are in line with the teachings of the Catholic faith.

St Paul speaks of a conversion of the mind that is so important to understanding the workings of God.

For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh,
but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.
To set the mind on the flesh is death,
but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.Letter to the Romans 8:2-6

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jerry, May 7, 2013

#12
jerry Guest

padraig said:

I think the great trouble with the Church is that its mystical heart is dying. Without this beating heart of Holiness and love what are we left with but an organisation, a set of structures and laws? Something apparently alive on the outside but dead and stale on the inside.

Devotion to Our Blessed Lady is the perfect antidote I believe to this death of the holy.

When I was asked in prayer to start this forum I did not want to, because Our Lady showed me that she wanted to concentrate on prayer and the mystical and I knew this would by its very nature mean I would reveal things about my own mystical life which I would much, much rather have kept quiet.

I have found in my own prayer life that Devotion to the Blessed Virgin, The Mystical Rose has opened my eyes to a world beyond this one, that what we think of as the @real world' is nothing of the kind.

As the poet Fr Manley Hopkins wrote,

'The world is charged with the beauty of God...'

Gerard Manley Hopkins (1844–89). Poems. 1918.

7. God’s Grandeur

THE WORLD is charged with the grandeur of God.
It will flame out, like shining from shook foil;
It gathers to a greatness, like the ooze of oil
Crushed. Why do men then now not reck his rod?
Generations have trod, have trod, have trod; 5
And all is seared with trade; bleared, smeared with toil;
And wears man’s smudge and shares man’s smell: the soil
Is bare now, nor can foot feel, being shod.

And for all this, nature is never spent;
There lives the dearest freshness deep down things; 10
And though the last lights off the black West went
Oh, morning, at the brown brink eastward, springs—
Because the Holy Ghost over the bent
World broods with warm breast and with ah! bright wings.

I think this is what Mary intended with the Consecration to open our mystical eyes to see, not with the head but with the heart...
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jerry, May 7, 2013

#13
jerry Guest

Jose said:

Do I have to believe that because the Popes ( having the power to do and undo from Heaven) did not consecrate Russia to the Virgin we are going through a period of atheism, abortion, persecution etc...? Only because the Pope decided that it would be not good to do so due to perhaps political reasons? Is, (God forgive me) our heavenly Father so ... that He would punish Christianity and humanity because this consecration did not happen? Is not enough with our daily fight against ourself and the temptations of the flesh and the devil? Why does God need an act of consecration to preserve His Church from the big evil it is going through?
Why does this request coming from a private apparition and not belonging to the revelation (which by the way is already completed) that all Catholics are due to believe can have such grave consequences?

It is suggested here that God could have prevented the horrible things Hitler carried out but He did not do it because we did not deserve it? Or as a punishment due to our sins?
Is it true that if humanity would have been more religious or would have "reacted" to the dance of the Sun in Fatima God would have impaired the violent death of 25 million people during WWII?

Sorry but I do not understand the theology behind.
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jerry, May 7, 2013

#14
jerry Guest

Archangel Michael said:

Jose, the way I see it. You don't have to believe in Fatima or any private revalation as long as you abide by the One, Holy Catholic, Apostolic Faith and live in the state of grace according to one state in life. We as Catholic's are not required to believe in any private revelation as we are in the case of Catholic Dogma.

With regard to the consecration.. just look at what happened in Frace in 1789. The King of Frace was ordered by St Margaret Mary Alacoque in 1689 to consecrate the Kingdom of Frace to the Sacred Heart of Jesus( nor he or his sons performed the consecration). 100 years to the day the King of Frace was relived of power and eventually was executed by the Third estate.
I see something silimar between the revelations of Saint Margaret Mary Alacoque and Fatima. The Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary are intertwined and I believe if the consecration is not done by 2017 we all will face what took place during what has become known as" the reign of terror".

It is your choice weather to believe in Fatima or not, but we are clearly living in extraordinary times... for me it is better to believe in Fatima than not.
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jerry, May 7, 2013

#15
jerry Guest

Mary Ann said:

On May 13, 1846 the United States Bishops petitioned the Holy See to make Mary Immaculate the Patroness of the United States and they decided to make the Conception of the Blessed Virgin a solemn feast day (This was 12 years before the Virgin told Bernadette Soubirous that she was the Immaculate Conception). The bishops wrote, "We take this occasion, brethren, to communicate to you the determination, unanimously adopted by us, to place ourselves and all entrusted to our charge throughout the United States, under the special patronage of the holy Mother of God, whose Immaculate Conception is venerated by the piety of the faithful throughout the Catholic Church. By the aid of her prayers, we entertain the confident hope that we will be strengthened to perform the arduous duties of our ministry, and that you will be enabled to practice the sublime virtues, of which her life presents the most perfect example." Although that proclamation was not called a consecration, it was an act of entrustment that has spiritually benefitted the USA and although it is in moral decline at this time, the Virgin Mary in locution to Father Gobbi stated "...soon you will flower again, when my Immaculate Heart will have its triumph, and your light will return to shine with such intensity that it will draw all those who live in this great continent."(May 17, 1987) Consecration to the Virgin Mary is very important for the times we live in.
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jerry, May 7, 2013

#16
jerry Guest

garabandal said:

All true private revelation adds nothing new to the Deposit of Faith for all public revelation was completed upon the death of the last Apostle [Jude 3]. Private revelation [prophecy] merely brings to light and helps understand the signs of the times in which we live. Thus Fatima, was ordained by God for this generation to call the world back to conversion.

So far as the heart of the Fatima message goes, meaning prayer, penance, reparation and the compassionate Immaculate Heart of Mary — the Church's approval here is absolute. No Catholic is free to reject these key aspects of Christian belief and practise. The Church's judgment here is infallible because these are matters that affect the very core of our Christian and Catholic life. Pope John Paul II made a public statement about the Message of Fatima: On May 13, 1982, while in Fatima, the Holy Father stated in his sermon the following words, "the Message of Fatima is so deeply rooted in the Gospel and the whole of tradition, that the Church feels that the Message imposes a commitment on her.

I have respect for those who doubt. Perhaps I am misinterpreting what you say but I detect a degree of cynicism in your writings concerning explicit actions that God willed through our Lady for the Church perform in His Holy name; namely the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, (I John 5:3)

I would say that no Catholic has a right to despise the prophecies of Fatima for in doing so you cause offence and also you might be very well opposing the will of God Himself. It is true that you do not have to give consent to private revelation but to criticise or oppose it is a different thing. Public, prophetic revelation must not be despised. The Virgin Mary's prophecy was confirmed by a public miracle and authenticated by a whole line of Popes. Also, its predictions have come true. So, while belief in the Message of Fatima may not strictly be required of Catholics as an article of faith, one would be very foolish to disregard such an obviously authentic message from Heaven. As St. Paul taught: "Despise not prophecies, but prove all things; hold fast to that which is good." (1 Thess. 5:20-21) The prophecy of Fatima has been proven worthy of belief. We should not despise it, but rather hold fast to what Our Lady told us at Fatima.
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jerry, May 7, 2013

#17
jerry Guest

PotatoSack said:

[Jose]You seem to be putting all the blame on the popes, but part of the fatima message is for catholics to practice the first Saturday devotion as an act of reparation. Perhaps if more people had stepped up to the plate all of these years and committed themselves to the first saturday devotion (myself included), the world just might look different and Russia may not have spread her errors as far. And also we should be praying for our popes to do this consecration...popes and priests are human like anyone else, and need our prayers. But all us catholics are partly responsible for the Fatima requests not being fulfilled.

in terms of how you can't wrap your head around how God could let WWII happen just because the consecration was not done. well, sometimes we just have to admit we are not smart enough to fully understand God and His ways. There are some things we just have to wait until we get to heaven to fully understand. But it takes humility to accept and admit this...
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jerry, May 7, 2013

#18
jerry Guest

Magdalen said:

Pope Leo had his famous vision in 1884 when satan asked for 100 years to do his worst. Our Lady at Fatima said the consecration of Russia to her Immaculate Heart would be done but late. Ok. The vision in 1884 occurred on October 13th. 33 years to the day was the final apparition at Fatima. And the consecration that Sr. Lucia said was accepted by heaven was made by Bl. John Paul II on March 25, 1984 almost 100 years after Pope Leo's vision. This consecration is said to have prevented a nuclear war that would have occurred in 1985. It also ended the communist stranglehold in many countries.

BUT we have not done our part which was also part of the package. How many pray the rosary daily? How many have truly made the 5 First Saturdays in reparation to the Immaculate Heart? Just as the final miracle of Fatima on Oct. 13, 1917 was said not to have been as stupendous due to the disbelief of many and also how the children were treated. And so the results of the consecration may not have been what they could have been due to the small response to Our Lady's request.
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jerry, May 7, 2013

#19
jerry Guest

HOPE said:

God did not punish us with WWII or Russia, He knows all and knew where we were headed. He gave dominion over the earth to men. In His great love and mercy for us, He sent His Beloved Mother to us with with an answer to our problems, telling us how to avoid these wars which we bring about ourselves. One good example of this also is Immaculee's story of the Rwanda genocide "If Only We had Listened". The answer is simple enough, we must change ourselves, our own hearts first, accept the King of Peace in our hearts, with prayer and penance{fulfilling our station in life, our daily duties} with the sacraments of our Church, we must change and help change those around us. We catholics are meant to be the salt of the earth and it is we who have failed.
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jerry, May 7, 2013

#20

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