Pope Francis's comments on the possibility of divorce in the Church? I admit I am concerned about this. Especially after his previous, very recent comments about, 'Not judging Gays'. I am not making an adverse comment , but I am concerned, very concerned.. Taking this to the Lord and Our Lady in prayer. Where is this going? Where are we going? This seems a whole New Territory to me. I am sorry, I am only an ordinary Catholic, but this does not seem to be what I was taught since I was a child... http://www.catholicfreepress.org/va...pope-refers-to-practice-of-orthodox-churches/
Here Voris seems to think the media have taken his Gay comments out of context, which I guess we realise but I wanted to share. http://gloria.tv/?media=482662 But I agree, hearing about relaxing divorce seems worrying.
I'm concerned too! It's hard enough for us to fight the liberals and spread the truth of the gospel without him making comments that can be easily taken out of context. I was told by Jesus Himself that marriage was BINDING in His eyes for life, and that very many would fall into hell because of the sin of adultry. That many would not even think they WERE in adultry because of false teachings. I have suffered many years trying to make it on my own and not to sin, and to help others lead a chaste life. This kind of stuff is very discouraging....
I agree Padraig. The thing that bothers me is, rather than clearly define what our Church teaches in matters of morals (gay activity and divorce and remarriage), he is either very careless in his choice of words, trying to be popular with world view or he is not walking the straight path of Catholic doctrine. He has yet to come out against contraception, sterilization or abortion for that matter. We have Catholics in massive numbers who have no problem going to communion while supporting these evils and no word from our leader as of now. I to will need to pray on this. Secondly, the Orthodox faith does not even acknowledge the Primacy of Peter, so why is "Peter" giving lip service to any other Church teaching that is contrary to our own?
If the Church allows the remarriage of divorced persons who were validly married then the Church can indeed err in matters of faith and morals. Either the Church was wrong during its first 2000 years in teaching that such second marriages are adulterous or the current Church would be in error by proclaiming that they are not adulterous. Either way, bad news for the infallibility of the Church. Marriage is no minor aspect of the faith. It is not a "discipline" like priestly celibacy. It is a sacrament instituted by Christ. How would this change the Church's understanding of its own covenantal bridal relationship with Jesus? Can Jesus divorce the Catholic Church due to its sins and enter into a new marriage with some modern sect? Maybe all those Protestants and Restorationists were right after all. I trust that the Holy Spirit will prevent Church doctrine on marriage from changing. If it does change then my faith will probably take a beating.
Here is the actual transcript (http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/francis-press-conference-on-return-flight-from-brazil-part-2) Gian Guido Vecchi: "Holy Father, during this trip you have spoken many times about mercy. In regard to access to the sacraments of divorced persons who have remarried, is there a possibility that something will change in the discipline of the Church? That these sacraments be an occasion to bring these people closer, rather than a barrier that separates them from the other faithful?" Pope Francis: "This is a subject that is always asked about. Mercy is greater than the case you pose. I believe this is the time of mercy. This change of era, also so many problems of the Church – such as the witness that’s not good of some priests, also problems of corruption in the Church, also the problem of clericalism, to give an example -- have left so many wounds, so many wounds. And the Church is Mother: she must go to heal the wounds with mercy. But if the Lord does not tire of forgiving, we have no other choice than this: first of all, to cure the wounds. The Church is Mother and must go on this path of mercy. And find mercy for all. But I think, when the Prodigal Son returned home, his father didn’t say: “But you, listen sit down: what did you do with the money?” No! He had a feast! Then, perhaps, when the son wished to speak, he spoke. The Church must do likewise. When there is someone … not just wait for them: go to find them! This is mercy. And I believe that this is a kairos: this time is a kairos of mercy. But John Paul II had this first intuition, when he began with Faustina Kowalska, the Divine Mercy … he had something, he had intuited that it was a necessity of this time. With reference to the problem of Communion, it’s not a problem, but when they are in a second union, they can’t. I think that it’s necessary to look at this in the totality of matrimonial ministry. And because of this it’s a problem. But also –a parenthesis – the Orthodox have a different practice. They follow the theology of the economy, as we call it, and give a second possibility, they allow it. But I think this problem – I close the parenthesis – must be studied in the framework of matrimonial ministry. And because of this, two things: first, one of the subjects to be consulted with these eight of the Council of Cardinals, with whom we will meet, the 1st, 2nd and 3rd of October, is how to go forward in matrimonial ministry, and this problem will arise there. And, a second thing: Fifteen days ago, the secretary of the Synod of Bishops was with me, for the topic of the next Synod. It was an anthropological topic, but speaking and speaking again, going and returning, we saw this anthropological topic: how faith helps the planning of the person, but in the family, and to go, therefore, to matrimonial ministry. We are on the way for a somewhat profound matrimonial ministry. And this is everyone’s problem, because there are so many, no? For instance, I’ll mention only one: Cardinal Quarracino, my predecessor, said that for him half of all marriages are null. Why did he say this? Because they get married without maturity, they marry without remembering that it’s for the whole of life, or they marry because socially they must marry. And the matrimonial ministry also comes into this. And also the judicial problem of the nullity of marriages, this must be reviewed, because the Ecclesiastical Tribunals are not enough for this. The problem of the matrimonial ministry is complex. Thank you."
Father John Hardon SJ, Catholic Dictionary on Remarriage. REMARRIAGE In general, the repetition of marriage while a married partner is still living. In the Old Testament remarriage was permitted, but, as Christ explained to the Pharisees, "It was because you were so unteachable that Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but it was not like this from the beginning" (Matthew 19:8). Christ restored marriage to its former monogamous state and, to provide the necessary grace, raised it to the dignity of a sacrament. A valid sacramental marriage is not dissoluble by any human power, civil or ecclesiastical. Instances of remarriage, therefore, are either cases where the previous marriage was not a sacrament, or the original marriage was not valid, or the partners had not consummated their marriage by natural intercourse.
The remarks by the Pope are not very clear, in my opinion, but he was speaking off the cuff I suppose. I'm not going to worry about it until there is some sort of official document or ruling on the subject. O LORD, my heart is not lifted up, my eyes are not raised too high; I do not occupy myself with things too great and too marvelous for me. But I have calmed and quieted my soul, like a child quieted at its mother's breast; like a child that is quieted is my soul.
The fact that "half the marriages are null" according to Pope Francis' predecessor is a problem within itself. Annulments are way to easy to obtain within the past few decades. The Church annulment process is what has to be locked at. Why is it so easy?
I agree with you. How can marriages of 20, 30, or 40 years suddenly be determined to be invalid? Marriages between Catholics and done in a Catholic church?
If it is really believed that half of all Catholic marriages are not valid then there are a whole lot of Catholics who think they are married but are really living in a state of mortal sin. How can any married Catholic even know?
I'm seriously considering avoiding all Catholic news sites, blogs, and forums. I believe that the evil one will increasingly use the internet to confuse, demoralize, and distract us. So many voices clamoring for our attention. So many ways to sow seeds of doubt and despair. I don’t know if anyone else ever feels this way, but I often find myself spiritually weakened after spending time on the internet. At the same time, there are also great resources on the net, like this site. But I’m not sure if the benefits outweigh the costs. I simply may not be spiritually mature enough to swim in these waters.
I have to admit I feel a little nervous about some of these things. One of the things that bothers me is this article where Pope Francis restricted the Latin Mass. This article defends the Popes decision, but some of the comments show an atmosphere of disdain for the age old rite. And this after Benedicts Summorum Pontificum. Very disheartening. I was thinking today about what Our Lord said about us all being of one mind. It seems sometimes like a division is taking place. I hate to sound negative, but like Carmel said It's hard enough for us to fight the liberals and spread the truth of the gospel without him making comments that can be easily taken out of context. Where are we headed? Maybe this storm is about to intensify. I always pray for disernment. We have been warned even the elect can be deceived. This Pope is in need of our prayers and allegience. He is the head of the Church. He has consecrated himself to Our Lady of Fatima,..who promised to crush the serpents head. http://ncronline.org/news/theology/pope-restricts-use-latin-mass-franciscan-friars-immaculate http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2013/07/important-pope-francis-severely.html http://catholicismpure.wordpress.com/2013/08/02/more-on-the-ffi/
Well, consider this. My parents generation was the last generation of Catholics to go to the altar as virgins. Gradually over time, and sometimes not so gradually, it became the norm to go to the altar as a couple who has already entered in to a sexual relationship with each other. And consequently to go to the altar whilst using / taking some form of contraception. It is the exception, now, to go to the Altar as a virgin and to be open to the state of motherhood - which is what the word 'matrimony' means, if we want to be semantic about it. So given that most of the couples, catholic or non-catholic, are essentially fornicating with each other while they prepare for their wedding, and subsequently already on some form of contraception, in what sense can it be said that they are contracting a valid marriage in the eyes of the Church? Only in a civil sense is it valid. Why? Because they are closed to life already. Their Consent is defective. Please read this paragraph from "50 reasons why the Winnipeg Statement should be recalled" By Monsignor Vincent Foy. 47. It has been the cause of invalid marriages. To exclude the right to have children, whether for a time, indefinitely or forever, whether on the part of one or both parties, or by mutual agreement, invalidates the marriage. Numerous couples have invoked the Winnipeg Statement to assert a "right" to exclude children and have brought this intention into a defective marital consent. For further information see: http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2004_docs/tragedyatwinnipeg.pdf and http://militesveritatis.blogspot.co.nz/2006/11/fifty-reasons-why-winnipeg-statement.html (By the way, the cost of a wedding has become so high that it is necessary to save for years to be able to afford it -another pressure on these poor souls that they don't need - its no wonder they are in no hurry and prefer to leave the formalities til later...) In the same vein, the cost of having children seems out of reach for many, because the State does not create economic conditions that are favourable to family life - quite the opposite- and this is deliberate- and this is atheistic communism at work, constantly eroding the society.
The answer does seem somewhat vague, given that this was an impromptu questions and answers session, but I don't have concerns or reservations about anything Pope Francis says here. I believe many, many marriages today are invalid, for the reasons laid out by Lumena above and more; Our Lady, I believe, spoke about this in an apparition (perhaps Fatima?) saying that many marriages were not pleasing to God, if I remember correctly. Perhaps I am biased, having had my own marriage annulled, though I have never entered into a new relationship or marriage, but I don't agree that annullments have become too easy to obtain (given the previous point about invalid marriages), nor do I see the problem being with annullments full stop, but rather with marriage preparation. In my experience the Church did a very poor job indeed in this regard; if a priest had dug a little deeper into my relationship prior to my getting married it would have been clear that he should not have married us. I can't tell you how many weddings I've been at where the bride and groom have been cohabitating, and in some cases have had children, where this was never even addressed as an issue by the priest marrying them. No confession beforehand, therefore sacreligious communion on their wedding day, no intention to return to practicing their faith... just the use of a pretty building for an hour or so. Just my two cents worth...
"Many marriages are not good; they do not please Our Lord and are not of God." - Blessed Jacinta of Fatima to Mother Godinho.
And that was in the days before the prevalence of premarital sex or contraception, so the problems go even deeper than those issues.
Listen, a Mass isn't invalid because the priest is in mortal sin (perhaps even from sexual relationships), so why would a marriage be invalid if the bride and/or groom is in mortal sin on their wedding day? I don't buy it. I know of very holy people who were married in grave sin, repented sometime after marriage and led a very holy Catholic faith. Was/is their marriage invalid? Let us not think for a minute that a sacrament can not be received, no matter how unworthy, and it be invalidated because of sin. Most youth, and I have taught them often enough to know, who receive the sacrament of Confirmation were/are not practicing the faith. Most were not going to Sunday Mass before or after they received the sacrament (ie. living in mortal sin). Was this invalid too? Bottom line, the Church would hardly have a valid sacrament if it meant you had to be in the state of sanctifying grace at the time you received it. The sacrament is enhanced by being in the state of grace, but it is not invalidated if one is in serious sin. To say a marriage was not valid because of the state of ones soul is simply wrong. This is not a condition for a valid marriage.
I agree with you, Fatima. I didn't mean that being in a state of mortal sin is what invalidates the marriage. My remarks about people being in mortal sin on their wedding say were in relation to the poor preparation to receive the sacrament, which sort of blended in to my previous remarks about many marriages being invalid. I didn't mean to confuse the two issues, just venting my thoughts.
Oh, you have misunderstood - it is not about the state of the person's soul. The problem is that people are entering in to marriage, in one sense, ( a civil sense) using their own definition of marriage, or the prevailing societal definition - whereas marriage is a covenant and according to the mind of the Church it must be permanent, faithful, exclusive, (i.e. monogamous) and open to life. These are the essential and basic things the couple marrying as catholics needs to be willing to accept and in order to accept these essential properties of marriage they must understand them and give them their full assent. They cannot make up their own ideas about what this covenant involves (well, they can - and they do, of course- e.g. they may decide they will have an open marriage, that is not exclusive or monogamous or they may decide they will be faithful only until they meet someone else that they are attracted to, or they may decide that it will last only until divorce parts them, or that they will not be having children, or will only be having 1.5 children or that they will see how they feel about having children up the road some, but in the meantime carry on contracepting.) The Church is trying to survive in a world that is redefining marriage & has been for decades now, in a way that is completely and utterly hostile to the mind of the Church. The poor priests and chatechists who have to explain these essential properties to those wanting a Church Wedding! Many times, they do explain correctly in the marriage preparation classes, but the couple (or one of the two) pay only lip service to it all, just wanting to get over the formalities so that the wedding can take place. How well I know this, because it happened to me and contributed to my being granted an annullment. We are in a holding pattern, waiting for a new Springtime. In the meantime, it's a complete disaster.
