Church must apologise to gay people, pope’s adviser declares Cardinal Reinhard Marx: ‘We’ve done a lot to marginalise homosexuals’ Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 13:45 Updated: Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 06:14 Patsy McGarry Cardinal Reinhard Marx: told a conference held in Trinity College that until “very recently”, the church and society at large had been “very negative about gay people . . . It was the whole society. It was a scandal and terrible.” Photograph: Stefano Rellandini A leading cardinal has said the Catholic Church should apologise to the gay community for its scandalous and terrible treatment of them, which had not changed until “very recently”. Speaking in Dublin, Cardinal Reinhard Marx said: “The history of homosexuals in our societies is very bad because we’ve done a lot to marginalise [them].” As church and society “we’ve also to say ‘sorry, sorry’ ”. The German cardinal is a member of the council of nine cardinals chosen by Pope Francis to advise him. Until “very recently”, the church, but also society at large, had been “very negative about gay people . . . it was the whole society. It was a scandal and terrible,” he told The Irish Times after speaking at a conference held in Trinity College. He said he had “shocked” people at the October 2014 extraordinary synod of bishops in Rome when he asked how it was possible to dismiss as worthless a same-sex relationship of years duration where both men had been faithful. “We have to respect the decisions of people. We have to respect also, as I said in the first synod on the family, some were shocked but I think it’s normal, you cannot say that a relationship between a man and a man and they are faithful [that] that is nothing, that has no worth,” he said. Archbishop of Munich and Freising, Cardinal Marx would not be drawn when asked by The Irish Times for his view on Vatican secretary of state Cardinal Parolin’s description of the marriage equality referendum result in Ireland last year as “a defeat for humanity”. Hesitant to judge Cardinal Marx said, “I don’t comment on others because that is not good.” As an outsider in the Irish context he was “hesitant” about making a judgment, he said. He spoke to the media in Trinity College Dublin after addressing a conference organised by Trinity’s Loyola Institute on The Role of Church in a Pluralist Society: Good Riddance or Good Influence? It is up to the state “to make regulations for homosexuals so they have equal rights or nearly equal . . . but marriage is another point”, he said. The secular state “has to regulate these partnerships and to bring them into a just position and we as church cannot be against it”. But “in all the history of mankind that [marriage] was the relationship between one man and woman, two who are open to give life for the next generation and that is a special relationship I think.” The state “must be secular. The state is not a Christian state. But the society is not secular. Society is Christian or religious, non-religious, multireligious, whatever,” he said. http://www.irishtimes.com/news/soci...-gay-people-pope-s-adviser-declares-1.2697089
Cardinals Kasper and Marx to Wed in Irish Ceremony Written by John Fisher Walter and Reinhard A-CNN has learned that Cardinal Kasper and Cardinal Marx are to wed in an Irish ceremony in November. Sources close to the happy groom and groom tell us that they have been very much in love since before Pope Francis ascended to the throne of Peter, but that they have been waiting for the Holy Spirit to prepare the world for the unique gifts they possess prior to scheduling their wedding. It is expected by the two men that the Spirit will prepare the world at the Synod on the Family in October. It is believed that the couple are planning on adopting three children, a number that the Holy Father recently stated he thinks is the “perfect number.” The Pope has also stated that Catholic families need not “breed like bunnies.” The November ceremony is to take place in Dublin, and it is expected that Archbishop Diarmuid Martin will preside. Up until now there had been much speculation as to why Archbishop Martin did not speak forcefully against gay marriage during the recent Irish gay marriage referendum, but his expected involvement in the Kasper/Marx wedding seems to provide a definitive answer. Their upcoming nuptials may have profound ramifications for the Catholic Church, as Cardinal Kasper may be rethinking his position on the “divorced and remarried” receiving Holy Communion. “Now that I think about it,” he reportedly told a close confidant, “maybe adultery is wrong. I certainly don’t want Reinhard cheating on me!” Moreover, in an equally stunning development, the happy couple have stated that they will not be using birth control. http://a-cnn.com/index.php/articles/item/2010-cardinals-kasper-and-marx-to-wed-in-irish-ceremony
Dutch priest jubilant after giving Pope Francis his book of pro-gay homilies https://www.lifesitenews.com/ ROME, June 24, 2016 (LifeSiteNews) – At the end of the general audience in Saint Peter’s Square on Wednesday, Pope Francis spoke affectionately with a Dutch priest who had gained permission to present him with a compilation of funeral homilies about the theme of homosexuality. After the short meeting, Father Pierre Valkering, a parish priest from the diocese of Haarlem-Amsterdam, told the press that he had been “profoundly touched” by the Pope’s welcoming attitude. Gay websites in the Netherlands gave prominence to the meeting, underscoring the way Pope Francis went out of his way to show his affection and interest for Fr. Valkering and his work. Italian version of Farewell Young Man of Light The book is a collection of about 30 sermons given by a well-known “chaplain of the gays” on the occasion of young gay men’s deaths in the 1980s and 1990s, most of whom died of AIDS. Father Jan van Kilsdonk (1917-2008), a Jesuit priest and student pastor, started reaching out to the gay community in Amsterdam in 1982 when he retired from his official job. He had a clearly unorthodox point of view, calling homosexuality a “brainwave of God” and seeking to value “homosexual love.” Even though Dutch Catholicism is renowned for its progressivism, Fr. van Kilsdonk did have problems with his superiors. His stance was all the more shocking because he saw the dark side of the gay lifestyle first-hand and yet he did not clearly preach the Catholic doctrine on repentance and the need for spiritual healing. He became well-known on the gay night scene in Amsterdam and personally accompanied some 200 young AIDS sufferers to their deaths, with a great deal of warmth and pastoral care. There is nothing wrong with that; on the contrary. But Van Kilsdonk went a great deal beyond that, justifying their lifestyle and berating the Church for its lack of openness to their tendencies. He was even to sign a petition launched in 1987 by a Dutch gay rights group, COC, asking the Minister of Justice to decriminalize sexual contact by and with young people under 16, recalls Pascal Beukers of Katholiek Nieuwsblad. It was in 2004 that Van Kilsdonk told the gay support group Mannenwerk (“Men’s work”) that homosexuality is not “an abnormality or a disorder” but “a brainwave of God.” Fr. Valkering met Fr. van Kilsdonk during a sabbatical in Rome in 2003. It was then that Fr. Valkering decided to work on the Jesuit’s sermons and to edit and publish a selection of them. The two men were to meet often to talk about the project and Valkering was touched to see the profound feelings and memories stirred up in the “gay chaplain’s” mind – although it must be said that Van Kilsdonk never claimed to be homosexual. The book, Farewell Young Man of Light, came out in Dutch a few years after his death in 2012 and has now been translated into Italian under the title Addio ragazzi di luce, with the gay rainbow symbol on its cover. It is the Italian version that was presented to Pope Francis on Wednesday morning.
I should not have to comment on these two articles, they speak for themselves. If you ever wonder why the Church and the world are about to suffer a severe Chastisement look well at this and remember. For the record Fr Valkering is , surprise, surprise, ..a Jesuit. 'Fr. van Kilsdank] became well-known on the gay night scene in Amsterdam and personally accompanied some 200 young AIDS sufferers to their deaths, with a great deal of warmth and pastoral care. There is nothing wrong with that; on the contrary. But Van Kilsdonk went a great deal beyond that, justifying their lifestyle and berating the Church for its lack of openness to their tendencies. He was even to sign a petition launched in 1987 by a Dutch gay rights group, COC, asking the Minister of Justice to decriminalize sexual contact by and with young people under 16, recalls Pascal Beukers of Katholiek Nieuwsblad. It was in 2004 that Van Kilsdonk told the gay support group Mannenwerk (“Men’s work”) that homosexuality is not “an abnormality or a disorder” but “a brainwave of God.” According to Dutch Vatican journalist Andrea Vreede, the fact that Valkering was allowed personally to present his compilation to Pope Francis is “remarkable.” “Every day, the Pope is overwhelmed by requests. It is he who decides to answer them or not. The presentation of this book was suggested to him, he thought about it and deliberately said ‘yes’,” she commented.' http://lesfemmes-thetruth.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/hmmand-what-should-we-make-of-this-more.html
What do you even say anymore? The world has gone mad. People seem to be SPRINTING to hell. How I hate homosexuality.
It seems that the pope agrees: http://www.catholicnews.com/service...for-helping-to-marginalize-gays-pope-says.cfm
Marginalize?!! We've been educating them (in droves!) in our seminaries and promoting them to the highest positions in the Church!! Apologize? For making you feel SHAME which hopefully leads to REPENTANCE which leads to salvation? I'm never going to apoligize for caring more about their soul than they do.
What does it say about the state of the Church that you have to ask? As if we didn't have enough problems here in Ireland, Cardinal Marx shows up to add to our woes and confusion. In the Church where I attended Mass this evening, the celebrant was one that I try to avoid. The homily included a gem about Jesus knowing nothing about priests - that the only priests He knew were Jews who were of a particular class. At that stage I tuned out and started saying the Divine Mercy prayers instead.
And the pope doubled down on his "who am I to judge" nonsense in his airplane interview today. "Please, Holy Father: Enough of these ad hoc, off-the-cuff, impromptu sessions, whether at thirty thousand feet or at ground level. Much harm through confusion has been caused by these latest remarks on marriage, cohabitation, baptism, confession, and pastoral practice. Simply cleaning the record in the official transcript is not enough; this is an era of instant reportage and lots of recording devices, tweets, and Instagrams." Msgr. Charles Pope
Its like the old "joke" Q: Do you think priests should marry? A: Only if they love each other. Not funny any more. Not funny ever.
ABOARD THE PAPAL FLIGHT FROM ARMENIA (CNS) -- Catholics and other Christians not only must apologize to the gay community, they must ask forgiveness of God for ways they have discriminated against homosexual persons or fostered hostility toward them, Pope Francis said. They must ask forgiveness of God?? And what about God, Does God need to be sorry for what He did to Sodom and Gomorrah?
Who's laughing? It could be a more convincing prophecy than some that are quite popular with members of this forum. I hope it doesn't happen in my lifetime because I don't think my faith is strong enough to turn a blind eye to such a "pastoral development of Doctrine", especially not as our soon to be Blessed (or Saint depending on the success of the Reformation celebrations) Martin Luther might not approve.
Yes, Josephite. Notice the outdated time reference: It is expected by the two men that the Spirit will prepare the world at the Synod on the Family in October. Safe in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary!
What a strange question, Mac. Of course God never needs to seek forgiveness. It must be meant rhetorically? It is my conviction that Catholics should never approve or encourage homosexuality to any degree or support those who do but I remember, not so long ago, gangs going out at weekends to amuse themselves by beating and even killing any 'poofs' they could find. That seemed to follow the period of 'nigger' bashing. This terrible terminology is hardly heard now in civilised society and those days are gone for the most part but they still lurk in the background. I think it still exists in the minds of many who are too scared to voice their true but offensive opinion. Sadly it would not take much for those days to come again to the fore, for those voices and fists to be raised again in self righteous anger. St Paul says we should exercise extreme caution in our dealings with such sinners, even to the extent of being careful how we handle their clothing. Sadly and fearfully, however, things have turned so much the other way in this pc world that I wonder if those homosexuals who have come to regard their habit as perfectly natural and therefore good, will ever be sorry for their sexual attitudes and actions. Will they ever see them as a sin. I like the old argument that says it's natural to have a bowel movement but its not good to have one when and where you want too unless you are a baby. Being natural, therefore, does not mean something is good. Christians know that but does society at large? I think not. Homosexuality is part of our fallen nature not the true nature originally designed by God. That is why it is truly unnatural. Original sin destroyed our original nature which God saw as good. Thats why it is called original sin. Homosexuals may learn the truth in the correction of conscience. They may also die from the shock of what they are shown. If their conscience tells them that what they do is good it will be corrected. There will be no escape. They will be shown it is the wrong use of a human faculty and why it offends God. Perhaps, however, even after having been told the truth they will still not be sorry. Perhaps they are too far into their sin to get out. The fallen angels had total knowledge of their wrong but still did it. They were not even tempted. They were fully responsible for their choice. It was a deliberate and fully informed decision. They had no excuse. Forgiveness was therefore not available to them. They had their faces fixed so determinately against the will of God, no matter what reprieve could have been offered, they would have refused to accept. They had made their minds up 100% as to what their future was to be. They had considered the possibility of forgiveness and rejected it in advance. They would not bow no matter what. So in the exercise of their free will they reaped what they had sown. Homosexuals are so wrong I almost feel sorry for them. When appropriate I always speak my truth to them but considerately and politely. I never use the offensive terms or threaten the violence that is condemned by the pope. If we have done this I personally think we should be sorry. In our hearts at least we should seek forgiveness. The pope must be right in this. Hostile attitudes and actions have turned the faces of those souls even further from God. That is not good. I do not know why I feel compelled to say so but I find lesbians more aggresive in their self defence than male homosexuals and less reserved with those who do not support them. I see their sin as less obvious and odious but is just as corrupting if not more so perhaps because it is more easily hidden, more occult, which means hidden. That's just my experience. (I am not a misogynist) There is a certain joy in divine justice but God is never happy when a soul is lost to hell. There but for the grace of God go we. This middle ground of neither condoning nor condemning is hard to traverse especially when it seems the sin has become the sinner when the sinner has given himself over to the sin to such a degree as to be totally transformed by it and possessed by it. Then in all probability, but not certainty, we are dealing with a lost soul. Only God can make that final call. Until then we are called to be as charitable as we can be even when we are utterly repulsed. Surely it is this charity to which the pope is calling us when he talks of apologies and seeking God's forgiveness?Who am I to condemn? But still I feel that there are times and situations in which we just have to call it as it is especially when defending and protecting the innocent. Sometimes the hard word cannot and should not be suppressed. We can only do our best.... Then try to be better. Sorry for the long rant. Couldn't stop.
I too am concerned about Luther and his followers. I heard a priest use him from the altar as an example of virtue. I pointed out that Luther had destroyed the mass and the sacraments and divided the church and that any of our many Catholic saints could have been used as a better example of virtue. That was not well received.
I get so tired of the "judgmental" arguement that gets thrown about anytime someone mentions the sinfulness of homosexual acts/unions. It's seems like it is basically a way to trip up Christians by using the "Judge not lest thou be judged" verse against them. And most of us have no idea how to respond. I'm sure that there are times that the judgement arguement holds water, but from what I've seen, it frequently doesn't. God gave us all the ability to DISCERN right from wrong. Testifying to the Truth that homosexuality is wrong is NOT judgmental, it is discerning. (And Mac, using your biblical approach...) Is St. Paul being judgmental in Romans 1 when he calls homosexual acts "unnatural", "shameful", and "perverse"? And referring to people engaging in homosexual acts, in Romans 1:28, St. Paul states "And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God handed them over to their undiscerning mind to do what is improper". I wonder how many priests, in using their pastoral approach, educate homosexuals on what the bible says. Is the Truth too unmerciful thesedays? How long before we must apologize for what the bible says about homosexuality? Or worse yet, how long before our bibles are banned for being "discriminatory"???
