I know that this has been raised in the 'The Vatican Has Fallen' thread but this is such a serious matter I thought that it merited a special thread. Apart from the Pachamama scandal, I think that this is the most astonishing and regrettable thing that has occurred in the whole of this lamentable papacy. Francis allegedly pushed this particular departure from Church teaching ('all are saved') when sharing his thoughts previously in his interviews with his Communist friend, Antonio Scalfari. However, the Vatican never confirmed or denied that the reports by Scalfari were accurate or that the Pope had been quoted in context. So Francis retained deniability about the things said during the interviews but now the 'cat is out of the bag' on this particular issue at least as this opinion of Francis was made by him in public and is reported on the Vatican website and so is now a 'teaching' of the Pope. He goes a step further than even Bishop Barron who merely opines that 'there is a reasonable hope that all men are saved' in that the Pope strongly implies that all ARE saved. Until this general audience, Catholics could (at a stretch) 'give him the benefit of the doubt' about alleged heretical opinions but now that is not an option, he has said what he said and it is clearly heretical. What are we to think/do in this unprecedented situation? I am very glad that the Irishman (?) stood up and took the Pope to task and hope to see more of this direct, brave action in the future. Pope Francis teaches HERESY: Pope Pius XII condemned the heresy of Francis - YouTube
Here is another perspective https://wherepeteris.com/pope-francis-and-apostates-is-this-communion-of-the-saints/
Jeffrey Dahmer acknowledged, in prison, that he was lost. Jeffrey repented, asked Christ to dwell in his heart, was baptized. Jeffrey Dahmer obviously did not believe in "I'm okay, you're okay." He acknowledged that he had sinned (grievously!!) and needed Christ in his heart. Anyone in the Vatican who might be reading this: WAKE UP. It's NOT good that you maybe don't agree with or understand what JEFFREY DAHMER did??
I don't believe that the Holy Father taught heresy here. What he said was ambivalent at best. I saw a good article from Dr Moynihan on this, I will repost it when I get a chance.
The Pope has contradicted the Catechism of St. Pope Pius X: 10 Question. Who are they who do not belong to the Communion of Saints? The answer to Question 10 includes 'apostates'. 15 Question. Who are apostates? Answer. Apostates are those who abjure, or by some external act, deny the Catholic faith which they previously professed. The Pope does not use the word 'apostates' but unambiguously includes those who have rejected the faith as still belonging to the Communion of Saints. I trust Dr. Marshall on this one.
I would hold of reaching a final verdict until I till I read Dr. Moynihan's piece. It is very good. I'll see if I can find it. The Holy Father has been operating at a very high level in the Church for most of his life and is cute as a barrel of monkeys. He won't leave any bad footprints for folks to track him by. He never does the obviously wrong things. He'd be a hard guy to tie down. He's spent his entire adult life being a hard man to tie down.
Letter #24, 2022, Wed, Feb 2: Francis - Inside The Vatican Letter #24, 2022, Wed, Feb 2: Francis Letter #24, 2022, Wednesday, February 2: Pope Francis Pope Francis made a remark today, apparently off the cuff (he seems to look up from his prepared remarks and speak extemporaneously), in the middle of his catechetical talk to those attending his General Audience in Rome which has sparked considerable comment, some favorable and much outraged. In the passage, he speaks of the ontological character of one’s Christian identity after baptism. What he means is that the grace of baptism, as the Church has always taught, changes the very being of a person so that all baptized are incorporated mystically but really — in actual being — into the body of Christ, that is, into the Church. He is stressing this point. Francis said this incorporation is so profound and so real that nothing a person can do can eradicate it. That is, that all sinners (and of course we are all, according to Christian doctrine, sinners) are part of the body of Christ, part of the Church even as sinners. The Pope stressed this in his brief extemporaneous comment, saying (he is citing a hypothetical Christian who asks a priest or the Pope whether certain people can really be part of the Church; that is why the first part of this quotation is in quotes, citing this question): “‘Let’s think about those who have denied the faith, who are apostates, who are the persecutors of the Church, who have denied their baptism: Are these also at home?’ Yes, these too. The blasphemers, all of them. We are brothers. This is the Communion of Saints.” Here is a link to the precise moment when he speaks these words, which lasts about a minute. (link) Below we have a video of the entire Audience. These words of the Pope have now been circulated widely on the internet. I have three comments. First, it is Catholic teaching that sinners are still members of the Church despite their sins. As Humble Catholic (@HumbleCath) commented here: “Quick reminder that everyone who is baptized is a member of the Church. This is the same way Paul and John used the term saints.” As The Catechism of Trent on the Communion of Saints teaches: “Those who are bound in the thraldom of sin and estranged from the grace of God, they are not so deprived of these advantages as to cease to be members of this body” (Thanks to Nathan Bird @NathanBirdCHA for pointing this out here). Second, this comment, though it expresses traditional teaching, does seem open to misinterpretation and confusion, as many have noted on the internet including Danny Toma (@Danny_Toma) notes here: “The problem is not that it is heretical per se (there is a perfectly orthodox interpretation, as the baptized who deny the faith can always repent and return to full communion). The problem is that it is ambiguous and subject to different interpretations.” This possible confusion or ambiguity is expressed by the commenter Korbinian (@KorbinianOpn) here: “If apostates and blasphemers are in the Communion of Saints, what is the point of trying to be in the Communion of Saints? If this is true and one could engage in any apostasy or blasphemy and still remain in the Communion of Saints, what’s the point of trying?” Third, regarding those who are attached to the Traditional Latin Mass these words would certainly seem to give them comfort, emphasizing that, even if they have doctrinal concerns about certain interpretations of the Second Vatican Council, they must still be considered, as baptized Catholics, to be members of the Church. Yes, I am saying this a bit “tongue in cheek,” trying to bring a certain sense of calm to those Catholics who feel that the Pope is treating them harshly by limiting their access to the old liturgy. I speak a bit humorously, but with good intention… to use these very challenging words of the Pope in favor of those toward whom he has seemingly been so severe. —RM P.S. We have included below the video of the Pope’s General Audience from today, February 2, 2022, with English translation. The part that has become controversial begins at minute 17 and goes for a minute or so. SUPPORT THE MOYNIHAN LETTERS Pope Francis at his Audience in Rome today
+ Christ has given every soul the means to be able to chose Him. By His precious Blood He formed a new covenant with humanity so that many may be one in Him. The word many is used because a poor soul has to have the strength to stand in front of its loving God and choose to be one with Him. Even though Jesus gave all souls the possibility of redemption through His Paschal Mystery, the soul still is given the loving choice by God of what it wants. Standing before the Creator can be frightening for any soul, because at judgment there is only the Truth before it, and all of the suffering that it caused Christ and His Body (the Catholic Church). If the soul was baptized into Christ’s Body, received the Sacraments, lived a life according to Jesus’ “way”, then that soul, by Christ’s grace, which includes the super abundant graces of His Mother, and help from other Saints in the Communion of Saints, then that soul can have the strength to want to go for eternity where it has already been in time. We choose to be part of a gift of Love that was offered to us first, to be a member in Christ in the Communion of Saints. A soul that rejects Christ and His Body on earth, is still loved by Christ and it’s members. The sins of that poor soul were paid for by Christ’s suffering ( including His Body). The Almighty Father loves that soul He Created, Jesus loves that soul that He provided the possibility of redemption, and the Holy Ghost loves that soul with sanctifying graces that may have been refused. The poor soul that rejected the Blessed Trinity’s love in time, will now want to flee from God once more for all eternity. Jesus told St. Faustina that if that poor soul can but look at God and seek forgiveness, there is still hope. The Communion of Saints, especially Mary, can help to give this strength for a single glance that seeks forgiveness. We who are in Christ’s body can help these souls (and all of our brothers and sisters in purgatory) with our prayers and sufferings. And when our time comes to go Home, I pray that we are all given the great grace of the final sacraments and a good death. May the Mother of God lead each of us home. Peace, Ed
His modus operandi has always been to create a mess. He is a master of obfuscation. We have a saying in Ireland you couldn't like him even if you reared him.
I find it best to think of him as little as possible. I must try and remember to pray for him more. My own conversion was a huge miracle. I would rule nothing out. Perhaps God will convert him and me both. Imagine hundreds of millions of Catholics pray for the Pope everyday, including during the Rosary and at Mass. Many of the people praying are saints, even great saints. Imagine the power in this. It is unbelievable. A huge Power House of Prayer. Whole oceans of Grace must be pouring down on Pope Francis's head.
But on the other hand imagine the Devil's interest in ceasing the See of Peter. He would do anything. Risk anything. It is the big potato.
Keep defending him, by all means, but flee any church building whose presider that denies the true presence to embrace all Christians as brothers. For then that is false worship, akin to idolatry.
National Catholic Register article: What Did Pope Francis Say About Sinners, Baptism and the Communion of Saints? The image of the Church as the Body of Christ helps us understand what it means to be bound to one another in communion, the Pontiff continued. This body can suffer together, or be glorified together. Kevin J. Jones/CNAVaticanFebruary 4, 2022 VATICAN CITY — Any talk about apostates and former Catholics who persecute the Church is bound to grab attention, and Pope Francis’ Wednesday audience drew a reaction from some who wondered whether he had intentionally included the damned in the communion of saints. For all the controversy, the Pope’s comments seem to reflect his personal emphasis on Catholic Christians’ links to the saints in heaven, but also to our loved ones and neighbors who are baptized but currently reject the faith. “We are brothers. This is the communion of saints. The communion of saints holds together the community of believers on earth and in heaven, and on earth the saints, the sinners, all,” the Pope said during his Feb. 2 general audience. During his catechesis, he emphasized that reliance on the intercession of a saint “only has value in relation to Christ.” More: What Did Pope Francis Say About Sinners, Baptism and the Communion of Saints?| National Catholic Register (ncregister.com) It seemed to go into more depth than I cared to study on.
I would on the whole tend to be careful of mainstream Catholic Sites vis a vis their narratives as regards the Vatican / Pope. They have steady stream income coming in and have to look to the Financial bottom line. Any critque of the Holy Father might influence this. So at best they tend to be fence sitters. I don't mean disparage them, this is life. But at the same time... There are exceptions of course such a EWTN which is wonderful. But EWTN was founded by a recently deceased lady who happens to be a saint. I do notice though that even mainstream Catholic Media are looking at the Pope a little askance. ..and is it any wonder?
National Catholic Register is an old outfit but EWTN actually owns them now. See where they come from. Irondale, Alabama. So, somehow, they are connected but that doesn't mean they are not independent. So, actually, Francis seems to allude to EWTN in that outburst some weeks ago. One could say NCR is affiliated with that Holy Lady's communication outfit. But don't take my word: EWTN acquires National Catholic Register Jan 19, 2011 https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/ewtn-acquires-national-catholic-register
There are numerous reports of course, of Padre Pio having warned about what is going down in the Church at the moment:
As far as I can tell, as an outsider, EWTN does not appear monolitihic in its approach. Raymond Arroyo, for example, seems to be a bit of an outlier. There is of course huge, huge pressure on them to conform to the Vatican. Some within the organization appear more willing to do so than others. There is a whole complicated history here. I won't go into it. Life's too short. Where there is great income stream there is great temptation. Ask Judas.
Many of the Pope's statements are ambiguous. He never explains things to help allay misunderstandings. That seems to me to be on purpose. Is he gaslighting? I think it best to ignore a lot and don't get sucked into the anger which is totally counterproductive.
So, now, we go from EWTN was founded by a deceased woman who happens to be a Saint to not trusting part of the EWTN family and btw, I didn't see where the article came down on one side or another. Reading the article, I see a re-stating of what Francis said, not arguing that he was right. But sure, let's just call people Judas. Someone very much only posted an article that isn't editorializing even. "Ask Judas", yes, let's be thankful for such Christian charity. Did Judas walk among those in wheelchairs? Or did Judas heal and cure others? Pope Francis performed a miracle on boy who walked onstage at Vatican, mother says - CBS News And yet, the Pope has a record of booting out abusers out of the clergy. Cleaning up, not pointing fingers, Benedict was in the news. Do we hear infinitely on this? Let's just go to youtube videos for authority, that's the ticket. Pope Francis removes Opus Dei bishop accused of protecting pedophile priest — MercoPress The dismissed bishop, a member of the conservative Roman Catholic group Opus Dei, had also become a polarizing figure in the Paraguayan Church and often clashed with more progressive clerics. The Vatican said Pope Francis had taken the “onerous decision” to remove Livieres Plano after careful examination of the results of the Vatican investigation. He has previously said bishops who covered up abuse would be held accountable. The dismissal of Paraguayan bishop came two days after the pope approved the arrest in the Vatican of a former archbishop accused of paying for sex with children while he was a papal ambassador in the Dominican Republic. I thought people were tired of these scandals. We won't have things perfectly. "Officially dismissed by Rome"... the article reads: Priest who dressed in drag removed from priesthood by Bishop (irishcentral.com) It does sound like this Priest has been hard-done. I'd need to know more. And for the record, it should not need to be repeated, a lot of the actions about the Latin Mass were set in motion by predecessors to Pope Francis. It is disengenuous to solely blame him on this. That's a bit complex but it's hardly his unilateral actions.
