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PF blasts reactionary American Catholics who oppose church reform

Discussion in 'Pope Francis' started by BrianK, Aug 28, 2023.

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https://www.ncronline.org/vatican/v...y-american-catholics-who-oppose-church-reform

Pope Francis blasts reactionary American Catholics who oppose church reform

Pope insists LGBTQ people are welcome in church, warns against focusing on 'sins below the waist'

Rome — August 28, 2023

Pope Francis blasted what he described as groups of "very strong, reactionary" American Catholics, warning against becoming "backwardists" who oppose change in the Catholic Church.

"The situation in the United States is not easy: there is a very strong, reactionary attitude. It is organized and shapes the way people belong, even emotionally," said the pope. "I want to remind these people that backwardism is useless, and it is necessary to understand that there is a correct evolution in the understanding of questions of faith and morals."

The pope's comments came during an Aug. 5 meeting with the Jesuits in Portugal during his Aug. 2-6 visit to Lisbon for World Youth Day. His remarks were published by the Jesuit journal La Civiltà Cattolica on Aug. 28.

In responding to a question from a Portuguese Jesuit who said he had spent last year in the United States — where he often witnessed criticisms of Francis' leadership of the church, including by American bishops — the pope pointed to what he described as "concrete" examples of church teaching evolving over time.

"Today it is a sin to possess atomic bombs; the death penalty is a sin, it cannot can be practiced, and it was not so before," he said. "As for slavery, some pontiffs before me have tolerated it, but things are different today."

Francis went on to point to the writings of the fifth century monk, Vincent of Lérins, who taught that doctrine "may be consolidated by years, expanded by time, exalted by age."

"Change develops from the root upward, growing with these three criteria," the pope told the Jesuits, noting that Lérins knew that the understanding of the human person is deepened with the passage of time.

"The other sciences and their evolution also help the church in this growth in understanding," Francis said. "The view of church doctrine as a monolith is wrong."

Francis, who regularly hosts private meetings with his fellow Jesuits during his international travels, has often used these encounters to speak candidly about challenges facing the church today.

In 2021, he used a private meeting with Slovakian Jesuits to issue a thinly-veiled criticism of the U.S.-based Eternal Word Television Network, known as EWTN, which is frequently hostile to his papacy.

Since the beginning of this pontificate, much of the resistance to the Francis papacy has thrived in the English-speaking world, particularly in the United States, where many of its leaders have openly opposed the pope's pastoral priorities, especially when it comes to welcoming LGBTQ people and other minorities into the church and combatting climate change.

While Francis did not name particular individuals or groups in his meeting with the Portuguese Jesuits, he offered a broadside against what he has frequently referred to as "indietrists" (Italian for "backwardists").

"If you don't change upward, you go backward, and then you take on criteria for change different from those that the faith itself gives you to grow and change. And the effects on morality are devastating," said Francis.

"Those American groups of which you speak, so closed, are isolating themselves. And instead of living by doctrine, by the true doctrine that always develops and bears fruit, they live by ideologies," he added. "But when you abandon doctrine in life to replace it with an ideology, you have lost, you have lost as in war."

During his time in Portugal for World Youth Day — a major festival of Catholic young people that takes place every few years in a different city around the globe — the pope repeatedly preached a message that everyone has a home in the Catholic Church.

When asked by a Jesuit who works with university students how this applies to gay students who are not living celibately, but are still active in the church, the pope did not demur.

"The door is open to everyone, everyone has their own space in the church," said Francis. "How will each person live it? We help people live so that they can occupy that place with maturity, and this applies to all kinds of people."

"What I don't like at all, in general, is that we look at the so-called 'sin of the flesh' with a magnifying glass," said Francis. "If you exploited workers, if you lied or cheated, it didn't matter, and instead relevant were the sins below the waist."

"We must not be superficial and naive, forcing people into things and behaviors for which they are not yet mature, or are not capable," Francis said. "To accompany people spiritually and pastorally takes a lot of sensitivity and creativity."

The pope went on to recount his numerous meetings with transgender people, whom he said felt rejected by the church.

"Everyone, everyone, everyone, are called to live in the church," he told the Jesuits. "Never forget that."

This story appears in the World Youth Day 2023 feature series. View the full series.

BrianK, Aug 28, 2023

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BrianK Powers Staff Member

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https://www.churchpop.com/what-sin-...rifying-truth-revealed-by-our-lady-of-fatima/

Excerpt:

What sin sends the most people to Hell?
After Our Lady of Fatima showed the three shepherd children (Lucia, Jacinta, and Francisco) a terrifying vision of Hell, Jacinta told Lucia the sin that sends the most people to Hell.

Jacinta asked her cousin, “Lucia — do you remember how our Lady’s heart, when she showed it to us, was being pierced by thorns?”

Lucia responded, “Surely, I do…It simply means that her heart is wounded by the sins of people, and she is asking them to be sorry, and to make up for their sins, so that God will not have to punish them too much. She can’t make people be good. They must themselves want to be good.”

Jacinta later revealed that according to Our Lady, “The sins which cause most souls to go to hell are the sins of the flesh,” or sins against chastity.

BrianK, Aug 28, 2023

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AED Powers

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BrianK said: ↑

https://www.ncronline.org/vatican/v...y-american-catholics-who-oppose-church-reform

Pope Francis blasts reactionary American Catholics who oppose church reform

Pope insists LGBTQ people are welcome in church, warns against focusing on 'sins below the waist'

Rome — August 28, 2023

Pope Francis blasted what he described as groups of "very strong, reactionary" American Catholics, warning against becoming "backwardists" who oppose change in the Catholic Church.

"The situation in the United States is not easy: there is a very strong, reactionary attitude. It is organized and shapes the way people belong, even emotionally," said the pope. "I want to remind these people that backwardism is useless, and it is necessary to understand that there is a correct evolution in the understanding of questions of faith and morals."

The pope's comments came during an Aug. 5 meeting with the Jesuits in Portugal during his Aug. 2-6 visit to Lisbon for World Youth Day. His remarks were published by the Jesuit journal La Civiltà Cattolica on Aug. 28.

In responding to a question from a Portuguese Jesuit who said he had spent last year in the United States — where he often witnessed criticisms of Francis' leadership of the church, including by American bishops — the pope pointed to what he described as "concrete" examples of church teaching evolving over time.

"Today it is a sin to possess atomic bombs; the death penalty is a sin, it cannot can be practiced, and it was not so before," he said. "As for slavery, some pontiffs before me have tolerated it, but things are different today."

Francis went on to point to the writings of the fifth century monk, Vincent of Lérins, who taught that doctrine "may be consolidated by years, expanded by time, exalted by age."

"Change develops from the root upward, growing with these three criteria," the pope told the Jesuits, noting that Lérins knew that the understanding of the human person is deepened with the passage of time.

"The other sciences and their evolution also help the church in this growth in understanding," Francis said. "The view of church doctrine as a monolith is wrong."

Francis, who regularly hosts private meetings with his fellow Jesuits during his international travels, has often used these encounters to speak candidly about challenges facing the church today.

In 2021, he used a private meeting with Slovakian Jesuits to issue a thinly-veiled criticism of the U.S.-based Eternal Word Television Network, known as EWTN, which is frequently hostile to his papacy.

Since the beginning of this pontificate, much of the resistance to the Francis papacy has thrived in the English-speaking world, particularly in the United States, where many of its leaders have openly opposed the pope's pastoral priorities, especially when it comes to welcoming LGBTQ people and other minorities into the church and combatting climate change.

While Francis did not name particular individuals or groups in his meeting with the Portuguese Jesuits, he offered a broadside against what he has frequently referred to as "indietrists" (Italian for "backwardists").

"If you don't change upward, you go backward, and then you take on criteria for change different from those that the faith itself gives you to grow and change. And the effects on morality are devastating," said Francis.

"Those American groups of which you speak, so closed, are isolating themselves. And instead of living by doctrine, by the true doctrine that always develops and bears fruit, they live by ideologies," he added. "But when you abandon doctrine in life to replace it with an ideology, you have lost, you have lost as in war."

During his time in Portugal for World Youth Day — a major festival of Catholic young people that takes place every few years in a different city around the globe — the pope repeatedly preached a message that everyone has a home in the Catholic Church.

When asked by a Jesuit who works with university students how this applies to gay students who are not living celibately, but are still active in the church, the pope did not demur.

"The door is open to everyone, everyone has their own space in the church," said Francis. "How will each person live it? We help people live so that they can occupy that place with maturity, and this applies to all kinds of people."

"What I don't like at all, in general, is that we look at the so-called 'sin of the flesh' with a magnifying glass," said Francis. "If you exploited workers, if you lied or cheated, it didn't matter, and instead relevant were the sins below the waist."

"We must not be superficial and naive, forcing people into things and behaviors for which they are not yet mature, or are not capable," Francis said. "To accompany people spiritually and pastorally takes a lot of sensitivity and creativity."

The pope went on to recount his numerous meetings with transgender people, whom he said felt rejected by the church.

"Everyone, everyone, everyone, are called to live in the church," he told the Jesuits. "Never forget that."

This story appears in the World Youth Day 2023 feature series. View the full series.
Click to expand...

I do not know what to say to this. I just don't know. Thank God for bishops in America who speak out. Little by little there are more of them. I thank God for it. "Sins below the waist" are often like entry drugs. Once in mortal sin it is easy to move to the next vice. What about the link between promiscuity and abortion? Shaking my head.

AED, Aug 28, 2023

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Mario Powers

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It is important to see that the Pope is now using the word "evolution" to discuss understanding more clearly the nature of sinful acts. It is apparent to me that his decision to modify the Catechism's teaching on the death penalty was one more step to promote the evolution of morality. Notice this very scary sentence:

"The other sciences and their evolution also help the church in this growth in understanding," Francis said. "The view of church doctrine as a monolith is wrong."

Next thing you'll see is the canonization of Teilhard de Chardin!

Mario, Aug 28, 2023

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garabandal Powers

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Mario said: ↑

It is important to see that the Pope is now using the word "evolution" to discuss understanding more clearly the nature of sinful acts. It is apparent to me that his decision to modify the Catechism's teaching on the death penalty was one more step to promote the evolution of morality. Notice this very scary sentence:

"The other sciences and their evolution also help the church in this growth in understanding," Francis said. "The view of church doctrine as a monolith is wrong."

Next thing you'll see is the canonization of Teilhard de Chardin!

Click to expand...

I posted this comment a year ago

I have always thought the change in the Catechism on the death penalty was a 'dry-run' for changes with regard to homosexual acts -- aka the Synodal way

Last edited: Aug 28, 2023

garabandal, Aug 28, 2023

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Jason Fernando Powers

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garabandal said: ↑

I posted this comment a year ago

I have always thought the change in the Catechism on the death penalty was a 'dry-run' for changes with regard to homosexual acts -- aka the Synodal way
Click to expand...

They are doing it one part at a time so as not to attract resistance or attention in what they are doing...

Jason Fernando, Aug 28, 2023

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garabandal Powers

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BrianK said: ↑

https://www.ncronline.org/vatican/v...y-american-catholics-who-oppose-church-reform

Pope Francis blasts reactionary American Catholics who oppose church reform

Pope insists LGBTQ people are welcome in church, warns against focusing on 'sins below the waist'

Rome — August 28, 2023

Pope Francis blasted what he described as groups of "very strong, reactionary" American Catholics, warning against becoming "backwardists" who oppose change in the Catholic Church.

Speck & plank come to mind.

"The situation in the United States is not easy: there is a very strong, reactionary attitude. It is organized and shapes the way people belong, even emotionally," said the pope. "I want to remind these people that backwardism is useless, and it is necessary to understand that there is a correct evolution in the understanding of questions of faith and morals."

The pope's comments came during an Aug. 5 meeting with the Jesuits in Portugal during his Aug. 2-6 visit to Lisbon for World Youth Day. His remarks were published by the Jesuit journal La Civiltà Cattolica on Aug. 28.

In responding to a question from a Portuguese Jesuit who said he had spent last year in the United States — where he often witnessed criticisms of Francis' leadership of the church, including by American bishops — the pope pointed to what he described as "concrete" examples of church teaching evolving over time.

"Today it is a sin to possess atomic bombs; the death penalty is a sin, it cannot can be practiced, and it was not so before," he said. "As for slavery, some pontiffs before me have tolerated it, but things are different today."

Francis went on to point to the writings of the fifth century monk, Vincent of Lérins, who taught that doctrine "may be consolidated by years, expanded by time, exalted by age."

"Change develops from the root upward, growing with these three criteria," the pope told the Jesuits, noting that Lérins knew that the understanding of the human person is deepened with the passage of time.

"The other sciences and their evolution also help the church in this growth in understanding," Francis said. "The view of church doctrine as a monolith is wrong."

Francis, who regularly hosts private meetings with his fellow Jesuits during his international travels, has often used these encounters to speak candidly about challenges facing the church today.

In 2021, he used a private meeting with Slovakian Jesuits to issue a thinly-veiled criticism of the U.S.-based Eternal Word Television Network, known as EWTN, which is frequently hostile to his papacy.

Since the beginning of this pontificate, much of the resistance to the Francis papacy has thrived in the English-speaking world, particularly in the United States, where many of its leaders have openly opposed the pope's pastoral priorities, especially when it comes to welcoming LGBTQ people and other minorities into the church and combatting climate change.

While Francis did not name particular individuals or groups in his meeting with the Portuguese Jesuits, he offered a broadside against what he has frequently referred to as "indietrists" (Italian for "backwardists").

"If you don't change upward, you go backward, and then you take on criteria for change different from those that the faith itself gives you to grow and change. And the effects on morality are devastating," said Francis.

"Those American groups of which you speak, so closed, are isolating themselves. And instead of living by doctrine, by the true doctrine that always develops and bears fruit, they live by ideologies," he added. "But when you abandon doctrine in life to replace it with an ideology, you have lost, you have lost as in war."

During his time in Portugal for World Youth Day — a major festival of Catholic young people that takes place every few years in a different city around the globe — the pope repeatedly preached a message that everyone has a home in the Catholic Church.

When asked by a Jesuit who works with university students how this applies to gay students who are not living celibately, but are still active in the church, the pope did not demur.

"The door is open to everyone, everyone has their own space in the church," said Francis. "How will each person live it? We help people live so that they can occupy that place with maturity, and this applies to all kinds of people."

"What I don't like at all, in general, is that we look at the so-called 'sin of the flesh' with a magnifying glass," said Francis. "If you exploited workers, if you lied or cheated, it didn't matter, and instead relevant were the sins below the waist."

"We must not be superficial and naive, forcing people into things and behaviors for which they are not yet mature, or are not capable," Francis said. "To accompany people spiritually and pastorally takes a lot of sensitivity and creativity."

The pope went on to recount his numerous meetings with transgender people, whom he said felt rejected by the church.

"Everyone, everyone, everyone, are called to live in the church," he told the Jesuits. "Never forget that."

This story appears in the World Youth Day 2023 feature series. View the full series.
Click to expand...

Pope Francis 'And instead of living by doctrine, by the true doctrine that always develops and bears fruit, they live by ideologies," he added. "But when you abandon doctrine in life to replace it with an ideology, you have lost, you have lost as in war."

And the Pope's ideologies are climate change, sustainable development goals, equality, fraternity, vaccine mandates, unrestricted mass immigration - I could go on.

garabandal, Aug 28, 2023

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AED Powers

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garabandal said: ↑

Pope Francis 'And instead of living by doctrine, by the true doctrine that always develops and bears fruit, they live by ideologies," he added. "But when you abandon doctrine in life to replace it with an ideology, you have lost, you have lost as in war."

And the Pope's ideologies are climate change, sustainable development goals, equality, fraternity, vaccine mandates, unrestricted mass immigration - I could go on.
Click to expand...

AED, Aug 28, 2023

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garabandal Powers

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In Portugal the dogma of the faith ---

garabandal, Aug 28, 2023

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Ang Archangels

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garabandal said: ↑

Pope Francis 'And instead of living by doctrine, by the true doctrine that always develops and bears fruit, they live by ideologies," he added. "But when you abandon doctrine in life to replace it with an ideology, you have lost, you have lost as in war."

And the Pope's ideologies are climate change, sustainable development goals, equality, fraternity, vaccine mandates, unrestricted mass immigration - I could go on.
Click to expand...

Exactly!

Ang, Aug 28, 2023

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Mario Powers

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We are approaching an apex in the rebellion, however, the addition of another synodal assembly in 2024 indicates to me that "progressives" are uncertain how much success their agenda will have this October.

O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!

Mario, Aug 28, 2023

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Mario said: ↑

We are approaching an apex in the rebellion, however, the addition of another synodal assembly in 2024 indicates to me that "progressives" are uncertain how much success their agenda will have this October.

O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
Click to expand...

I suspect they will adopt the strategy of having each local church hold an assembly after October this year focusing on their own "pastoral needs", such as Brazil and other regions covering the Amazon discussing the ordination of married men and bringing the results to Rome in October 2024.

Luan Ribeiro, Aug 28, 2023

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garabandal Powers

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Mario said: ↑

We are approaching an apex in the rebellion, however, the addition of another synodal assembly in 2024 indicates to me that "progressives" are uncertain how much success their agenda will have this October.

O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
Click to expand...

Good point - keep praying.

And we have to remember he's talking off the cuff again - not ex-cathedra

garabandal, Aug 28, 2023

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Rain Powers

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I try not to be troubled by all of this, but I am. Jesus help me to trust in You more. Thy Will be done.

Rain, Aug 28, 2023

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If previous Popes were troubled by rebellions by tiny groups of heretics who were troubling but never really were anywhere near the centre of power then think how difficult it will be for Pope Francis and his henchmen to suppress the Rising of millions upon millions of ordinary decent Catholics right across the World who will be screaming blue murder at his Sodomite, Straight Our of Hell Dark Agenda. Already they are in a very,very bad place and things have not even begun to warm up properly yet.

It kinda makes me smile. They used to be the heretics nipping at the heels of the Vatican. Now these very same heretics are in control of the Vatican and they are not so much getting their heels nipped as having their legs torn off.

There's a kind of bitter irony in this for them if they care to see it. The Rebels being rebelled against.

I wonder do I sense a kind of panic amongst them, especially Pope Francis. The knowledge that,as the Japanese Admiral said after Pearl Harbour...

'We have woken the sleeping giant'.

Please God it may be so. But I think a lot of folks in the Vatican are starting to have sleepless nights. Very,very sleepless.

padraig, Aug 28, 2023

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padraig said: ↑

If previous Popes were troubled by rebellions by tiny groups of heretics who were troubling but never really were anywhere near the centre of power then think how difficult it will be for Pope Francis and his henchmen to suppress the Rising of millions upon millions of ordinary decent Catholics right across the World who will be screaming blue murder at his Sodomite, Straight Our of Hell Dark Agenda. Already they are in a very,very bad place and things have not even begun to warm up properly yet.

It kinda makes me smile. They used to be the heretics nipping at the heels of the Vatican. Now these very same heretics are in control of the Vatican and they are not so much getting their heels nipped as having their legs torn off.

There's a kind of bitter irony in this for them if they care to see it. The Rebels being rebelled against.

I wonder do I sense a kind of panic amongst them, especially Pope Francis. The knowledge that,as the Japanese Admiral said after Pearl Harbour...

'We have woken the sleeping giant'.

Please God it may be so. But I think a lot of folks in the Vatican are starting to have sleepless nights. Very,very sleepless.
Click to expand...

So much power in the silent majority once they no longer remain silent.

These comments from the Pope make so much more sense to me now for what occurred over the weekend. During the petitions Sunday, there was a petition that almost sounded verbatum to what was said. It was along the lines of accepting all lgbtq persons into the church. This honestly made me very uneasy. I still responded because in my head I was thinking absolutlely all are welcome but don't be practicing your sexual acts or at least trying not to and going to confession and trying to overcome such strong temptations. I do pray for them often and feel their pain. What a heavy cross to bare to not act on what seems like natural urges to them.

Andy3, Aug 28, 2023

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Jason Fernando said: ↑

They are doing it one part at a time so as not to attract resistance or attention in what they are doing...
Click to expand...

Blizzard, Aug 28, 2023

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Rain said: ↑

I try not to be troubled by all of this, but I am. Jesus help me to trust in You more. Thy Will be done.
Click to expand...

You have described it exactly. Jesus help me to trust in you more. Thy Will be done.

AED, Aug 28, 2023

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Andy3 said: ↑

So much power in the silent majority once they no longer remain silent.

These comments from the Pope make so much more sense to me now for what occurred over the weekend. During the petitions Sunday, there was a petition that almost sounded verbatum to what was said. It was along the lines of accepting all lgbtq persons into the church. This honestly made me very uneasy. I still responded because in my head I was thinking absolutlely all are welcome but don't be practicing your sexual acts or at least trying not to and going to confession and trying to overcome such strong temptations. I do pray for them often and feel their pain. What a heavy cross to bare to not act on what seems like natural urges to them.
Click to expand...

I don't mind sodomites coming into the Church so long as they convert and don't try to own it.

Last edited: Aug 28, 2023

padraig, Aug 28, 2023

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Just what we need Padraig. Already have too many pedos so might as well throw in some more sodomites. The devil must be thinking he is winning and in many ways he is by taking so many away from God but he is only winning battles and never can win the war. We know his time is ending but the process we are all about to endure is not going to be a pleasant one at all. Such scary and yet wonderful times to be alive. I am calm but the next 12-18 months I just feel is so pressing on us for greater prayer, focus, fasting, sacrifice, etc. I have noticed many prayers of mine being answered too. For the longest time many of you know on this board how on fire I was for so many years then I felt the cold, the darkness and silence in the soul. I have prayed for that fire to return for so long and nothing. We all know this is normal for so many. It is a challenge and a cross to bare but it happens to so many. Now I am feeling that fire return and feelings and emotions are so much stronger. Feelings of guilt from past sin are so much stronger too but they are not painful in one sense. Hard to explain but the pain is more about why I did to disappoint our loving God so much. Why did it take so long to realize the errors of my ways. I feel more his pain of my sins like a parent feels when their own child disappoints. It gives me great sadness but it also is so powerful of a lesson in learning to abandon those ways because now you have a knowledge of how those sins hurt our Father. It is a mini warning in my soul if you will but I so fear and tremble for the real one. I fear it because I know how hurtful these things would be to God and others and I only know the hurt I feel over it is only a fraction of how He must know and feel. My fear is about how disappointed He must have been with me and it pains me greatly to know I had, have and I'm sure will continue to fail Him in many ways because after all I am but human and He is divine. I just feel like when the warning comes, I will simply collapse onto whatever surface it is and cry in pain and sorrow for my sins. That is even before I have to really see them, feel them and see the ones I don't even think of any more. I will be so ashamed and know I won't be able to look upon Him. I have seen His beautiful gaze before in dreams. So perfect, and loving. I felt so much peace and love in my soul. Now to look into those eyes with so much shame and guilt is something that truly horrifies me.

My Lord and My God, have mercy on me, a sinner!

Andy3, Aug 28, 2023

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