Medjugorje - true or false

I would like to open this thread for those who have concerns about Medjugorje since this topic has come up on other threads. Please post here is a spirit of openness and charity in a true Catholic spirit. If we could take one issue at a time and work our way through it - please cite all sources because this is essential to an honest debate.

I will kick it off - I have read all of the Medjugorje messages since 1981 and found nothing contrary to Catholic teaching and doctrine. Has anyone concerns about any of the messages from the 25th of the month or the 2nd of the month?

 

Our Lady, on October 21, 1981, according to the visionaries, said:

Jozo is a saint, I have already told you.
[Cf. René Laurentin, Corpus Chronologique des Messages, O.E.I.L., Paris, 1987, p.159]

Is just an extract of what you can find here:

http://www.marcocorvaglia.com/medjugorje-en/

 

And a very good article where the case of disobedience is analyzed:
The Gospa and Instigation to Insubordination

 

The difficult thing here is who to believe? Padre Pio had his detractors yet we all know that he was a lovely holy man, a true friend of Christ.

Jose, if the Church declares Medjugorje a place of pilgrimage, will you accept their findings? For I will accept their findings if they condemn it.

 

I am going to say one more comment, and then I am going to leave this thread. We will all have to agree to disagree on this, as people are going to get hurt and that is never on.

I am trying to look at this objectively, though it may not seem like it, but right now, I am taking the emotions out etc.

If this is all a hoax, then the visionaries had to be advised on what to say so that there would be no error. This could only come from the Franciscans themselves, and if this were the case, and was only a few, by now the rest of the order would know. They would know from the clandestine meetings, hushed voices when they came near, subjects obviously changing or a silence when they entered the room. Or even, recognizing from the messages one of the Franciscans pattern of speech when speaking of holy things.

This being the case, it would mean that most if not all were corrupt. A terrible allegation if it wasn't true. And an awful horrendous thing if it was.

Now, I am going to leave this thread, as I don't want to cause any upset, and this is the very last thing that God would want. We cannot pray for peace if we are not going to be peace. It doesn't make sense.

We need to live the prayer that we are saying.

I am going to ask God to bless everyone one of us on this forum today, those silent, and those loud.

God bless x

 

Something that I hope will raise a smile... I have to go to the hospital now, for a hearing test!!! How ironic is that!!

 

False at 100% but you already knew my opinion, the World will remember this place as the biggest hoax since ever, very painfull for many souls, the commission will never confirm Medjugorje unfortunately for many faithfull, I am telling it to you few months before their conclusion, please remember my own words here and today, now if it's not the case, I will be first to apologies but unfortunately I beleive my sources at 100%, many things can happen before, many.

Aviso

 

To declare a place of pilgrimage is something different than to say that the Virgin is appearing every day to the seers.
For me it would be very difficult to understand that the Church will approve an apparition where the Virgin is saying that the Bishops are wrong and instigates to disobedience to the Church!

Somebody has to convince me that these apparitions are true and not a hoax. At the moment and with all data we have I have enough reasons to believe that they are fake.

 

Probably nobody thought about this:

If the Church approves the apparitions then it will immediately means that it also accepts that Ivan is talking with the Virgin every day. Then I would not understand how the Pope is not going every day to Ivan's apparitions to talk with the Virgin too. !!!!!!!!

 

Is that the normal way the Virgin is acting?
I do not think so.

 

i hear what you are saying Jose, but how do we know that those diaries are authentic, and when apparitions that have been approved speak of bishops and priests leading others astray, who do we say is right?

Many bishops no longer have respect for and obedience to the pope.

Many priest no longer respect the full wishes of the bishop. We were told to withdraw from meat on a Friday as a penance, a recent directive from our local bishop. We were told about this from the pulpit but told to be sensible about it and if at a party and ham sandwiches was all they had, then we were to eat them!

Deacons and Sacristans are flaunting their 'power' everywhere, some are placing themselves above the priest.

Parishoners in turn are ignoring the priests and running every one down that doesn't agree with their modern views or who simply upsets them.

Many in Renewal think that they are the only ones with the Holy Spirit which is a heresy in itself. We receive the Holy Spirit in Baptism, and yes, mortal sin can cause The Holy Spirit to leave us, but He will still remain very close waiting for us to go to confession, inspiring us to do so (though not everyone listens) and then restoring us to those full graces of our baptism again.

Many in renewal also think that because they are the ONLY ones with the Holy Spirit this puts them above the priest and they can talk about where He is going wrong etc, or even decide to ignore him because The Holy Spirit told them to!

We are in a bit of a mess at the moment. The only one who has true authority to say whether something is authentic or not is The Pope.

In these times which are far from easy, and when the world is so dishonest and there can be fakes on both sides, those for and those against. It becomes very difficult.

But for now, I would argue, (and yes you correctly stated those five stones are the pillars of our faith) that if these messages help you in your faith, and help you understand what your faith is about, and do not go against the teachings of Holy Catholic Church, then it is perfectly fine to
PRAY.
RECITE THE ROSARY FROM THE HEART.
ATTEND MASS EVERY WEEK, DAILY IF POSSIBLE
MAKE FULL USE OF THE SACRAMENTS
GET BACK TO CONFESSION. (this truly brings about humility and grace)
FASTING
AND READ THE BIBLE, IN PARTICULAR THE GOSPELS AND LIVE THEM

For anyone that is reading these messages and are a bit confused. Just do the little stones as mentioned above. God will indeed fill your heart with many graces.

One needs to read the gospels to be able to fully meditate in the Rosary and to follow the example of Jesus and Mary.

 

Anyway, we all feel very strongly about this one way or the other. There are very valid points, but the full truth will come out some time soon I hope.

 

garabandal asked:

jose and Aviso : Is it fair to say from your replies that you do not have concerns about the messages given on the 25th and 2nd of the month?

Yes i understand you have concerns about other things and I hope they will be addressed, (Mary's child has attempted to reply) but I would be happy for you to confirm that you do not have concerns about the messages.

 

I have a problem with people interjecting and not sticking to the rules! I am not an expert by any means but want to tackle one issue at a time. If we want an honest debate then be reasonable. Jose has made several posts already and Aviso has made his point clear but neither of you have answered my question directly.

I asked if anyone has any problems with the public messages of the 2nd and 25th of the month? They are in print or are freely available on the internet. I have read all of the messages and in them I have found nothing contrary to faith or morals.

I will deal with all other issues once we have tackled this first question!

 

I have no problem with them Garabandal. I love them..

 

Garabandal.
First, no, I do not see anything strange in those messages and neither in the majority of them. Question answer.

Second, I do see problems with other situation when the Virgin is saying to the seers to dismiss the authority of the Bishops, for instance.

Third, I did not know rules on this topic. The head is: Medjugorje, true or false. I just said what I think.

I hope you are not posting every of the 40.000 messages to discuss all of them

I already told my main problems with Medjugorje in this an other threads. If anybody has an explanation without always talking about the fruits of conversion and the future judgment of the Church I am ready to debate.

 

Ok - there are only several hundred public messages enough to fit into a small volume not the 40,000 you mentioned. Thankyou Jose - you have answered my first question. So the public messages do not appear to contradict the Catholic religion in faith and morals.

Let me make it clear - if the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church through the commission condemns Medjugorje I will always be obedient to the Church. Obedience is one important sign.

Now we will tackle the issue of the Bishop and what the seers allegedly said.

• December 19, 1981, Vicka in her Notebook writes that their bishop, Pavao Zanic, was “the more guilty party” in conflict with the Franciscans, and the Gospa defended the Franciscans who were disobeying the bishop’s order to share their parish with secular clergy.
• June 21, 1983, in a letter the visionary Ivan said that the Gospa demanded the Bishop’s “immediate conversion” and that he should stop emphasizing the “negative side”– otherwise she and her Son would punish him.
• February 3, 1985 the Gospa told three visionaries that Fr. Barbaric, whose removal was requested by the bishop, should stay.

I cannot find authentic sources that back up the above statements. Can you identify the book, website or other source where you found these?

I am suspicious of these statements - the first one supposedly in Vicka's notebook - why would a private notebook [if it exists?] be made public? The second is a letter and we need to see the full copy. The third was on a Sunday not a day noted for public messages from Medjugorje.

 

You can see the sources here:

http://www.marcocorvaglia.com/medjugorje-en/

Do you have also doubts that some priests involved in this were sanctioned by the Church and that they went on without permission?

Just look through out the site above, take your time and read the sources. Some include a declaration of the Bishop of Mostar about disobedience to the Church.

When you have done that, we can go on discussing.... If you want.
Jose

 

The site I posted contains all well documented references you need: letters, documents, videos, declarations etc...

 

I will read the material of the Bishop but some of the other authors on this site are highly questionable. Below is a link to the source material Corvaglia

http://www.marcocorvaglia.com/medjugorje-en/about-me.html

I see one of the main sources for Marco Corvaglia's website is an author called Donal Anthony Foley of the Theotokos website and his book 'Medjugorje Revisted' who also condemns Garabandal on his website:

http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/articles/trufalse.html

I have had correspondence with this gentleman and he was highly uncharitable in a personal manner about Conchita of Garabandal in an email he sent to me.