So I'm confused here, easily confused most of the time but I have a question: when did the bishops and priest turn away from marriage and proclaim celibacy? was reading in 1Timothy 3:1-7 and it looked like the original church was built around married bishops. Any light would be welcome.
I can just see them with six shooters roasting a cow round a barbecue, Gail I have always loved Saint Paul whom I consider the greatest of the Apostles and the greatest Mystical Writer who ever lived { St Peter , of course is the greatest in terms of the authority given to him} I just think that Paul has a huge message in his life and writings to those who pray and follow Our Lady. Shortly after his vocation, legand has it Paul went into the deserts of Arabia for three years he went into the deserts of Arabia for a period of three years and it was there, I suspect He had the highest mystical experiences becoming caught up in to the Third Heaven:. 2 Corintians chapter 12 verse 1: "It is doubtless not expedient for me to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ more than fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knows.) Such a one caught UP to the THIRD HEAVEN. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knows 4 How that he was caught UP into PARADISE, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter." Was given the Stigmata: Galatians 6:17 Finally, let no one cause me trouble, for I bear on my body the marks of Jesus. And entered Transforming Union or Spiritual Marriage: Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. But you know I think it is in the first of these, being caught up into the Third Heavens that we see the birth of the Churchs path along the path of such things as the way the Church related to the Gentiles (such as ourselves) and many other things such as the institution of monasticism ,religious orders and celibacy . ..and I think it is in this high mysical path we can see how celibacy came about. (these are onyl my own personal lviews on this, I don't know of anyone else who has written about this, for what its worth) . Peope have often wondered what St Paul actually meant when he talked of being, 'Caught up to the third heavens'...{and it is on the topic of celibacy in relation to this, I want to particularly reflect}. By tradition and teahing the Church has viewed heaven , Purgatory and hell as having nine levels. Now nine is a Mystical level and at the third heavens, I believe we relate particulary the Blessd Trinity of Father Son and Holy Spirit. The three highest choirs of angels, with the Seraphim relecting and serving as a conduit or throne for the Holy Spirit. The Cherubim the Throne of God the Father (this is shown in the Ark of the Covenant were angels are displayed on the side ,showing the Living Presence of God Himself) ...and the third the Thrones the power and authority given to Jesus the Christ, God made man. ...and the Thrones being the Power and Authority given over to Jesus the Christ. Now it is in this talk of Third Heavens that I always look for when I see Saints and people of prayer talking of their Mysitcal Experiences for here we see the Apex of Infused Knowledge, of prayer at its highest form . It reminds me of what was said of the Child Jesus , shortly after He taught the Elders in Temple: Luke 2:39-52 [39] When Joseph and Mary had done everything required by the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee to their own town of Nazareth. [40] And the child grew and became strong; he was filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was upon him. [41] Every year his parents went to Jerusalem for the Feast of the Passover. [42] When he was twelve years old, they went up to the Feast, according to the custom. [43] After the Feast was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. [44] Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends. [45] When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. [46] After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. [47] Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. [48] When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, "Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you." [49] "Why were you searching for me?" he asked. "Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?" [50] But they did not understand what he was saying to them. [51] Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them. But his mother treasured all these things in her heart. [52] And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men. Oh well out of time....off to mass..I'll write more about celibacy later...
Sometimes, with some of the posts, a very definite, unusual ( soft and pure ) peace comes over me.( I bet it's Our Lady) This writing brought that peace with it. I take it to mean this is something God wants me to "know" and hold on to. I had never heard of the tradition of Paul going to the desert. It makes so much sense, the desert is where God does some of his greatest works.
I didn't know, Gail, but I found other references to St Paul in the desert, one of which which I discovered on this Orthodox site: http://www.stpaulsirvine.org/html/saintpaul.html Anyway in short what I am trying to say about Saint Paul is that he had real and immediate mystical/prayer experiences right back to the Church and that he brought these fruits back home. I think this mystical experience of praying and bringing the fruits of the prayer home is so much a part of our Catholic Tradition. For instance Sinat Margaret Mary praying and bring home devotion to the Sacred Heart; Saint Catherine Laboure and Saint Bernadette praying and underlining as a fruit the Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, Sister Faustina praying and bring home Devotion to Divine Mercy and so one. Of course with celibacy we have scriptural references , the tradition and teachings of the Church...but there is another thing and that is the mystical testimony of couuntless saints and people of prayer who actually practised celibacy. But you know I don't think this teaching is just for priests and religious, I think it can apply to lay Catholics for periods of time when they accidenttally or deliberately must of offer to practise celibacy. My former Spiritual Director Father Bernard, a Passionist priest told me a kind of funny story one time. A Jewish Psychiatrist visited the monastery one time and asked the priests about their sex lives. When Father Bernard told him they practised celibacy he simply laughed incredulously and asked for the bottom line supposing openly the priests must have sex with each other as it was IMPOSSIBLE for adults to be celibate. ....and you know that has been my experience especially with non Catholics folks with no experience will not often believe celibacy is possible. I find this so very revealing. I have practised celibacy all my life and have found it extraordinarily helpful to my prayer life. It makes room for God, its provides and opneing to be married to Him. I am not saying that non celibate Christians cannot and have not had the deepest possible relationship with the good Lord, but in my own experience it is a HUGE aid for making room in the Inn as it were for the baby Jesus. .....and that one of the great confirmations to me that this celibacy is a calling from the Lord is the example of God's saints ..from Paul on down.
This is the TRUTH, protestants can't understand celibacy and they have a terrifically difficult time with penance, in fact for some the Crucifix is way beyond their limits. It is an enormous chasm between some evangelical friends and myself so I simply don't go there. I pray that there will be an opening spacious enough for those ideas to enter their hearts but so far ...we are so far. Oh well, more prayer.
Yes its true ,Gail, its another Sign of Contradiction..and to tell you the truth its even a problem for Catholics themselves. I am often regarded with a certain..distrust at best.. 'He's a geek and couldn't find a woman' ..to. 'He MUST behomosexual' of worse. This used to trouble me when I was younger but I'm pretty cool with this now. I think people often think I am so old it doesn't really matter what I do. :lol: :lol: But I feel sorry for young folks growing up in a society when sex is the BIG thing, for how it must complicate their lives often with impossible dreams. My father asked me when time, forlonely when I was getting married one time as he longed to be a grandfather ( I have to laugh at this as he was a grandfather and a great grandfather many, many times over when he asked this :wink: ) . But I took a vow to Our Lady when I was 15 and of celibacy and with oen notable exception I have always kept this. (the one exception was when a few years back I fell very deeply and briefly head over heels in love in love for a short period, most unexpectedly with a lady, a a Schoasticfrom New York...but thats another story}.
Padraig, you know it's really silly but I totally enjoy my age and the fact that "I'm over the hill"...what freedom. I can just do as I please, or not! But I have to tell you that your vow to Our Lady really hit my heart. It's as though you were earmarked from birth to be Hers. I would love to hear the romance story when the spirit moves you. Only now am I starting to understand giving my whole life to Our Lord. What an incredible adventure, bumps, dips and really high ridges...never in a million years would I have dreamt my life would be so full and rich.
Yes Gail, I love being older now myself. I never expected to live beyond 20 when I was young and I was nearly killed so many times, especially during the war here that I can't count them. Now like you I see life as a very,very rich gift indeed. I was noticing folks at work during the week again, often they seem so sad and troubled and the least thing disturbs them. For instance a young guy got a phone call with a problem and he cursed and swore and became very agitated...about something that was really an everyday part of his job. I think prayer gives a deep deep peace and ease with all lifes problems and changes. My boss at work, Maura called in during the week. I missed her but apparently she was very sad. Not only a broken wrist while entertaining many guests over Christmas (what on earth will she do? :shock: } but her father who is sick and whom she was taking care of has developed pnuemonia} and her husbands latest blood tests for his leukemia are very ,very bad it looks like she is loosing him. I think how very,very passing is life and the things of life..only God is constant.. I watched a little of the film Therese today. St Therese's father developed Alzeimers and could not talk but he maneged two words, 'In heaven'...thats so true isn't it of so much in life, 'In heaven' For only in heaven will love and all that and whom we loved be made permanent. I know from prayer that a time of respite was given to him, but now Our Lady is coming to take him home. Only by viewing the events of this life in the light of Eternity, thorugh Faith can we make any sense of them.
Padraig, we've all been duped! We've all been persuaded to believe that what is in front of our eyes is the only reality and that Heaven was just a fairy tale to make you feel good when a pet or very old relative died. What a lie! I feel so for your Maura, her burden is tremendously heavy. Losing one of her loved ones would be very difficult but both? Too, too heavy. With prayers graces will steady her. I'll pray for her. I know why those Carmelites pray and pray...it's the only way!
