Padraig, I was wondering if you have any thoughts pertaining this link I found when seeking to find out about contemplative prayer. Do you think there are 5 stages, and if so, how do you think these stages exist as it pertains to the dark night of the soul? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Jesus Prayer: "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Be Merciful" We have mainly five stages. This is, roughly, the course of the development of the Jesus Prayer. Each stage has its own grace. + Firstly. The reciting of the Jesus Prayer VOCALLY. We repeat the Jesus Prayer with our lips while trying at the same time to focus our attention on the words of the prayer. + Secondly. Then the nous (Greek, “mind”) takes the Jesus Prayer and says it noetically [WITHIN, MENTALLY OR SPIRITUALLY]. Our whole attention is found again in the words but it is concentrated on the nous [the soul’s attention, the Eye of the soul]. When the nous gets tired then we start again to vocalize the prayer with the lips. After the nous has been rested we start again to concentrate our attention there. St. Neilos advises: Always remember God and your nous will become heaven. + Thirdly. The Jesus Prayer then comes down into THE HEART. Nous and heart are now united and combined with each other. Attention is centered in the heart and it is immersed again into the words of the Jesus Prayer, which has an invisible depth. + Fourthly. The Prayer becomes now self-activating [PRAYER WITHOUT CEASING]. It is done while the ascetic is working or eating or discussing or while he is in church or even while he is sleeping. "I sleep but by heart waketh" is said in the Holy Scriptures (Song of Songs 5:2). + Fifthly. Then one feels a divine soft flame within his soul burning it and making it joyful [LOVE, DEVOTION, WARMTH AND VISIONS OF DIVINE LIGHT]. The grace of Christ lives in the heart. The Holy Trinity is established. "We become the habitation of God, when He lives within us, established in the memory. Thus we become the temple of God when remembrance of His is not disturbed by earthly cares, and mind is not distracted by unexpected thoughts. Fleeing all that, the Friend of God withdraws into Him, chasing away the passions which invite intemperate thoughts, and occupying himself in a way which leads to virtue." (Saint Basil the Great) Thus he feels the Divine Presence within himself and this grace passes through the body which becomes dead to the world and is crucified [THE NOUS RISES ABOVE BODY-CONSCIOUSNESS DURING CONTEMPLATIVE PRACTICE]. And this is the extremist stage, which is sometimes connected with the Vision of the Uncreated Light of the Holy Trinity. — Archimandrite Hierotheos (Vlachos), "A Night in the Desert of the Holy Mountain," Birth of Theotokos Monastery, Levadia, ISBN: 960-7070-04-6 thanks, Jay
Hi Jay, This is quite an unusual link. The Archmandrite appears to be setting the Jesus Prayer into a five stage setting. Its unusual because Easterners do not usually use stage models of prayer. During the middle ages a wooden box containing scrolls from the Greek philosophers was found washed up in a beach near the City of Bari in Southern Italy. This had the most profound influence on Western thought leading to the scholasticism of the great Universities, especially Paris. This led to our modern reductionist, scholastic/ scientific way of looking at things. So , for example if I was talking about say, Nacy Pelossi I might say, 'I disagree with Nancy Pelossi because she; A} Supports abortion. b} Supports gay rights c} Goes against the teachings of the Church ....and so on. This is a Western reductionist way of looking at things Whereas a Easterner might say , 'Nancy Pelossi walks dark paths and we must not walk them with her'. A more holistic way of talking. So I am a little surprised the Armandrite uses stages like this to explain the Jesus Prayer. You ask if there are, in fact five stages in prayer. This is a little like asking if there is a best way of cooking eggs. The is no best way, but you could say that the best way is the way that suits yourself. I myself prefer Teresa of Avila in the Interior Mansions and here she gives seven stages of prayer growth. But thats the way I like to cook my eggs. Anyway the Archmandrite , talking from Mount Athos the home of Eastern Orthodox mysticism and Heychasm is trying to use stages to talk to westerners. But I don't really find it personally satisfying. He is probably slightly unfamiliar with Catholic Mystical Theology and his own stages do not fit our own. Personally I think Prayer without ceasing would be my equivalent of Mystical Marriage and self starting Prayer would be Contemplative Prayer. But thats just my opinion. I see Mystical Marriage as a very rare thing, I have only known one person in my life and Archbishop who told me he was in it. An Easterner on the other hand would see fulfilment like this in prayer as more common. In a sense we are talking a different philosophical language and so we may be misunderstanding each other. I have found going to Teresa very satisfying, she is so clear and concise , I would be inclined as a Catholic to use Catholic Mystics as my first teacher to understanding then later to move to others for more shedding of light. As for translating Western thought to Eastern and Eastern thought to the West ; well it is very difficult. A minefield I would try to avoid. The Archmandite is talking about five stages here but not in a way I am really at home with. As I say it is just a matter of how you like your eggs cooked. I am sure I am as clear as muddy water, I am sorry it is a very difficult subject. :shock:
Basically in prayer you are moving from saying a prayer to becoming prayer. This is what we are put on earth for, to become prayer, to become love, to become saints. This is what heaven is, the Eternal prayer. If you want to see this in action look at some of the people, particularly the older people in your local church. Many of them will have loyally have followed the path of prayer their whole lives. I love to do this myself. My grandmother, God rest her never seemd to have the rosary out of her old hands. You would think someone had welded them their with a torch. She had prayed so much prayer became a part of her. This is what I mean by moving from praying to becoming prayer. If we were to look at Mary we would be very concious of this; of a person who was herself a prayer.
Thinking back to the book, "the Way of a Pilgrim", he spoke about his heart aching during certain points of parts of his spiritual growth. Can you tell me more about this? Have you experienced anything similar? thanks! jay
Hi Jay, If you think back to the analogy I gave of prayer being like a fire. The important thing about the fire is that it gives of heat, to heat the house. In prayer this heat is increasing love; one of this best measurements of this is love and perhaps the best measurement of this is our relationships with others, for instance if we forgive others and if we forgive others (and ourself easily) The second most important thing the fire gives is light , which is Wisdom and a good measurement of this is that when we read the Word of God it becomes alive and active in our hearts. Maybe the best measurement of this is that the Word of God challenges and cousels us. The third property of the fire of prayer is its phenomena, the flames, the sparks, the smoke. These are the least important and one of these phenomena is the physical effect on the heart ...and on the whole body in fact which many mystics mention and even use as sign posts to progress in prayer . In fact many great saints experienced no physical phenomena of any of the sparks, smoke and flames. No visions, no locutions, no rapture, no ecstasy. no , how shall I describe them??/ Heart pains. Saint Therese of Liseaux is a good example of this, she walked with great faith in utter darkness that grew particularly awful as her death approached. Blessed Mother Tereasa of Calcutta is another good example of this great darkness. So this is just to put these phenomena in context, they are by no means necessary or inevitable, for some folks they occur, for others they do not. Ruth Burroughs, an English Carmelite Prioress comments on this in her book 'Guidelines to Mystical Prayer' and says that some folks walk a 'light on' path to prayer and others a light off path. She also says that some nuns approached Saint Teresa one time and asked why they, unlike their spiritual mother were not experienceing things like aches in the heart. But God is Master in His own house , it is not things like visions that make us close to God it is the extent of or love. I think you even see this in mortal love . We talk of people having their 'heart broken'. And with Cupid the heart being 'pierced' by an arrow. But of course love is not to be judged by Cupids arrow but how a couple give to each other in their relationship rather than how the poor old heart is feeling. So having put this phenomena in its own little lowly box yes I have experienced a lot of these phenomena. However as the years role past I experience them much less. The first time was about 18 months after my conversion when I was walking the dog round Belfast. It was a lovely sunny day and I was coming to the crest of a hill and saying the rosary, happily and quietly. Suddenly it was as though my heart, well I don't know quite how to put it ,was lifted up. In a way it seems physically as though you are leaving the ground, though you are not. As this years went on this became very intense at times ,so much so it was a rapture and ecstasy. Why is this?/ Well theres so much love hitting the little heart it feels like it is going to explode, it just can't handle it. Sometimes so great in this pain it is like a fire or spear of fire pearcing the heart and burning it, setting it on fire. Some years later prayer turned to darkness and I think the body got more used to dealing with such things and only occasionally I get them now. However time has taught me not to place much value on such things. However being honest, they are highly enjoyable, as though God bent down to kiss and embrace you. There is a danger in this in that we might love God for His gifts rather than Himself.They com to some folks to others they do not. But this is not really important as I say the only real important thing is that we do grow in love. As I say some writers use them as little sign posts but this is a bit deceptive as they don't come to all souls no matter where on the Pilgrim Path of Prayer they are. Sometimes, to get back to other love when I look at one of my brothers I feel my heart ache with love, so such things are not entirely limited to prayer.
A comparison. Padraig, I find a subtle difference in your experience of prayer and the one I had following my conversion. The pattern of prayer I had at 23 grew out of my receiving the baptism in the Holy Spirit in the context of the Charismatic Renewal. It is as if the Lord had bypassed my practice of prayer and took me directly to the mountaintop, where there was exultant joy: a deep and tangible sense of his presence. It was a marvelous gift, but dangerous for me in this: I considered the inner peace and tangible joy normative criteria for authentic prayer. Thus, when the darkness and desert injected themselves into my faith journey, the consolations dried up and I was at a loss. It was then that I had to learn to develop the practice of prayer (with my will) and take up my Cross. It was difficult and I know Catholics who continued their pursuit of consolations in Pentecostal churches because they confused the gifts for the Giver. I rarely experience the consolations anymore, yet, prayer has become my lifeline. It is the fruit that matters as your analogy of fire so aptly points out. In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary!
Hi Lee, here is a link to Catholic Planet which will tell you what happened on the thread, 'Meeting Mary and learning to pray': http://catholicplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=191 and also in my little book about it, though I swear to goodness I am not trying to sell you anything!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: http://www.lulu.com/author/content_revi ... CID=548851 Hi Terry, I think in Charismatic Prayer the Holy SPirit maybe gives us what you might call, 'Ahead of time gifts' gifts such as praying in tongues, the Holy SPirit crying within , 'Abba Father' . However as we come to more Spiritual maturity the old nose goes to the grindstone, the honeymoon time of prayer goes into action and we have to do a little sweating. A bit like marriage I suppose its not all cahampagne and roses. To continue on this analogy suppose a husband broght his wife home flowers every night and hugged and kissed her all the time but did not help out with money and the chores, it wouldn't be much good. On the other hand suppose the husband worked himself silly in a marriage but forgot the anniverseries, which is better?? Well best of all, I suppose if he worked himself silly and still managed with the flowers. The phenomena that comes with prayer are like the roses, nice but not essential. I had many long years when God seemed to have gone to the other side of the Universe and forgotten me. Now He's come back again and I am getting the flower shop bought for me, which is wonderful, don't get me wrong, but I know life being life there will be times again when He will clear off again. But whatever. Saint Therese said a nice thing about this, She said she was Gods little toy, sometimes He would pick her up and play with her and at others He would throw her in a corner and forget about her. Either way He still loved her and she would keep loving Him. Back to the Charasimatics in the Early Church. They were deluged with flowers at the start and then they ended up getting gobbled up by lions. However the flowers went but you know dark as things got for them I notice they went singing to the lions. The flowers still falling after the dark. At the end of the day God will judge us by our love. I was up at my widowed sisters a while back. Her husband died at twenty six leaving her four small children to bring up. At her house I discovered her brother in law doing chores round the house for her. Yet since my brother in law died I so rarely call, I have never done any chores, I have been pretty useless, I judge myself more on this selfish neglect than by any prayer gifts I may have received. Goodness help me on the day of Illumination is all I can say. I think one thing keeps my feet on the ground with prayer is the words of Jesus, 'Not everyone who says 'Lord, Lord' will enter the Kingdon of Heaven'. A bit chilling.
I was going to add something about consolations not being the important part, but what's important is continuing to walk in faith and do our duty, whether we feel good about it or not. But I think Padraig said it all already. Really, that last post was quite beautiful, and I'm going to share it with my spiritual friend Pat who was in the charismatic renewal from the begining. Padraig, you could leave me a few bread crumbs though. :lol: :lol: :lol: Darrell
Prayer for me is usually a labour that I apply myself to. I feel good if I get a family rosary said daily. That can be quite an achievement. Not everybody is enthusiastic so I go ahead and let them know I will be saying it and usually one or two join me. I think your reflections on the flowers is very apt. I think flowers all the time for me would not be good. I very occasionally get a little flower, like a daisy. Mary
I believe in the morning, Even in the darkest night, I believe in the summer, Even when the snows in sight.
The thought occurred to me to add Jay that that {I believe}this is the part of prayer described by St Teresa as the fifth mansion , the Prayer of Union{in case you are interested}: cf: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/teresa/castle2.ix.i.html
Padraig, Your POSTS are the flowers. Your words of encouragement, deep faith, and delightful humor lift me up time and again. So when technology goes KA-BANG, I will plod on in the darkness. All on this forum have helped me to grow spiritually. I was watching the History channel tonight as the events of 9-11 were being remembered, and a very deep sadness gripped me. Just knowing what lies ahead and watching the horror of those events sent me into a perpetual prayer mode. It's so true what you said about our whole lives becoming prayer.
Thank you, Padraig! When you encourage us toward prayer, my heart desires Jesus, all the more: Ps 84(83): How lovely is your dwelling place, O Lord of Hosts! My soul yearns and pines for the courts of the Lord. My heart and my flesh cry out for the living God... Gotta go! Guess where? In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary!
found this saying .....had to share There is not a time to pray and a time not to pray... you hold the hand of God. Sometimes you talk and sometimes you dont, but you are with God all the time Here is the site of inspirational holy cards and messages where this was obtained: http://thewindowshowsitall.blogspot.com/
One of my favourite stories about this praying while not praying comes from the Cure of Ars. A little old peasant used to come to his early mass every morning and leave his spade outside the Church door. One evening Saint John Vianney saw the spade outside the Church door and becoming concerned entered in to see if the old man was alright. To his surprise he saw the old man staring silently at the tabernacle. He had simply forgotten the time and sat there all day!! The priest asked him what on earth he had been doing all day?The old man, the very,very holy old man gave the most wonderful reply... 'I look at God and God looks at me'
