I wanted to start a new thread on this subject because I think if you read the Garabandal seers words very carefully, you will see clearly two things: 1. The "communism" being referred to is an evil that manifests itself inside of and primarily affects the Sacraments of the Roman Catholic Church. 2. The key sign and cause of the Warning are restrictions on "the Holy Mass." I submit to you Glenn Hudson's very well-researched article on the subject: http://simplicityhumilitytrust.org/2021/garabandal/prophecy-about-communism.html Note that when the girls speak of "communism" and "things being worse than ever before," they always give an example such as "priests will have difficulty saying the Mass" and "priests who are communists will create such confusion that people will not know right from wrong." And Jacinta said that "the Warning itself will occur when the situation will be at its worst." What does "the worst" mean? Answer from Mari Loli: "the Warning will come when you will see that Holy Mass cannot be celebrated freely anymore; then it will be that the world will most need the intervention of God." The Garabandal seers are trying to tell us that the "communism" we should look for will not look like the "communism" of the 20th Century (economic, materialistic, political). Rather, the battlefield will be inside the Church, and the primary goal of these communists is to make sure that the "the Holy Mass cannot be celebrated freely anymore." Because of limited access to the authentic "Holy Mass," "the situation will be at its worst." And when that happens and, more importantly, precisely because the authentic Mass is restricted, "the Warning will come." Supernatural intervention will be necessary to "save humanity." Save humanity from what? From a world that no longer celebrates the authentic Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Now, many of us agree that the Warning is probably going to happen really soon. If restriction of "the Holy Mass" will be both the sign and the cause of the Warning (as the Garabandal seers say it will be), then what might be "the Holy Mass" that the Virgin was referring to? Could it be the Traditional Latin Mass that people INSIDE THE CHURCH are currently restricting and have stated is no longer relevant in Catholicism. Do we see another "Holy Mass" that is currently being restricted or such restrictions are being discussed?
Exhibit A: https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/c...atholic/?utm_source=top_news&utm_campaign=usa VATICAN CITY (LifeSiteNews) — Newly appointed Cardinal Arthur Roche, head of the Vatican’s liturgy department – the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments (CDW) – has stated that devotion and adherence to the Latin Mass is a mark of being “more Protestant than you are Catholic.” Cardinal Arthur Roche made his comments in conversation with two fellow Englishmen, the respective Rome correspondents for dissident publications The Tablet and the National Catholic Reporter. As head of the Congregation (now Dicastery) for Divine Worship, Roche has been notable in his defense and promotion of Pope Francis’ severe restrictions on the traditional Mass as contained in Traditionis Custodes, as well as his own subsequent Responsa ad dubia which contained even further restrictions. The Novus Ordo Mass, born out of and after the Second Vatican Council, was part of a necessary “reform,” said Roche. “After two world wars which had been initiated in the heart of Christian Europe, it was obvious that there needed to be an enormous reform within the Church,” he stated. Citing this “reform,” Roche criticized “those who are dragging their feet,” suggesting that by opposing this “reform” they are becoming “Protestant.” That reform is taking place, but it’s a slow process because there are those who are dragging their feet with regard to this and not only dragging their feet but stubbornly opposing what the Church has actually decreed. That’s a very serious matter. In the end, people have to ask themselves: am I really a Catholic, or am I more of a Protestant? He described the Second Vatican Council as “the highest legislation that exists in the Church,” claiming that “if you disregard that, you are putting yourself sideways, to the edges of the Church. You are becoming more Protestant than you are Catholic.” Prior even to the 2021 release of Traditionis Custodes, Roche penned a letter to the bishops of the world in 2020, attacking the traditional Mass and praising the Second Vatican Council’s paradigm shift in its view of the Church. He hailed the fact that the Council had removed the notion of the Church as a “perfect society and a world power to be contended with,” and instead was viewed as “constantly open to reform and conversion.” Roche described the Novus Ordo, as the “good fruit from the tree of the Church” and called it an “ecclesiastical duty” to implement the Novus Ordo, criticizing how the Latin Mass did not promote the community celebration by the laity, but instead had “the priest alone as celebrant.” Roche’s most recent comments, exaggerating the weight of Vatican II – echoing similar comments he has made previously – come in contradiction to the words of Pope John XIII, who in his opening address for the Council described it as only “pastoral.” The Pontiff outlined that it would be “pastoral” in nature, and instead of innovating, would “work out ways and means of expounding these truths in a manner more consistent with a predominantly pastoral view of the Church’s teaching office.” Roche’s increasing antagonism towards the traditional Mass Roche’s comments attacking devotees of the Latin Mass as “Protestant” build upon a number of interviews he has given in the last 12 months. In late 2021, Roche described the current provision of the Latin Mass as an “experiment” which “has not entirely been successful,” saying that the Church should instead go back to what “the [Second Vatican] Council required of the Church” – the Novus Ordo. The provision of the Latin Mass in recent decades was simply to encourage the Society of St. Pius X “to return to full unity with the Church,” Roche stated. Earlier this year, Roche doubled down on his opposition to the “Mass of Ages,” saying “it is not the norm. It is a pastoral concession.” “To stand against Peter is an astonishing act, full of hubris,” Roche added, hinting that support for the Latin Mass was an act of resistance to the Papacy. Then speaking to Vatican News after Francis announced Roche would be made cardinal, the Yorkshire-born prelate stated that the liturgical “reform” of the Council was “not something to be taken as an option.” Roche declared: All that is taking place is the regulation of the former liturgy of 1962 Missal by stopping the promotion of that, because it was clear that the Council, the Bishops of the Council, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, were putting forward a new liturgy for the vital life of the Church, for its vitality. Yet Roche’s moves against the traditional Mass have been criticized by the former prefect of the Apostolic Signatura, his (now fellow cardinal) Raymond Leo Burke. Speaking to Ed Pentin of the National Catholic Register in February, Burke described Roche’s Responsa ad dubia as “confused” and “contradictory.” Burke stated that “what the congregation [CDW] pretends is not only contrary to the good order of the Church but contrary to reason.” Now raised to the cardinalate, Roche looks set to continue his restrictions on the Latin Mass in line with Pope Francis, with the new cardinal addressing the Pontiff on Saturday thus: “Our mission today is to help you carry this cross and not to increase its weight.”
Exhibit B: The "continual sacrifice" in the Book of Daniel refers to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, according to the Church Fathers. See St. Robert Bellarmine's discussion of the subject. Here are the quotes from the Book of Daniel on the subject. Daniel 8 describes "the Little Horn" (aka the Antichrist) taking away "the continual sacrifice": 9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn: and it became great against the south, and against the east, and against the strength. 10 And it was magnified even unto the strength of heaven: and it threw down of the strength, and of the stars, and trod upon them. 11 And it was magnified even to the prince of the strength: and it took away from him the continual sacrifice, and cast down the place of his sanctuary. 12 And strength was given him against the continual sacrifice, because of sins: and truth shall be cast down on the ground, and he shall do and shall prosper. 13 And I heard one of the saints speaking, and one saint said to another, I know not to whom that was speaking: How long shall be the vision, concerning the continual sacrifice, and the sin of the desolation that is made: and the sanctuary, and the strength be trodden under foot? 14 And he said to him: Unto evening and morning two thousand three hundred days: and the sanctuary shall be cleansed. Daniel 9 says the "sacrifice shall fall": 24 Seventy weeks are shortened upon thy people, and upon thy holy city, that transgression may be finished, and sin may have an end, and iniquity may be abolished; and everlasting justice may be brought; and vision and prophecy may be fulfilled; and the saint of saints may be anointed. 25 Know thou therefore, and take notice: that from the going forth of the word, to build up Jerusalem again, unto Christ the prince, there shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks: and the street shall be built again, and the walls in straitness of times. 26 And after sixty-two weeks Christ shall be slain: and the people that shall deny him shall not be his. And a people with their leader that shall come, shall destroy the city and the sanctuary: and the end thereof shall be waste, and after the end of the war the appointed desolation. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many, in one week: and in the half of the week the victim and the sacrifice shall fall: and there shall be in the temple the abomination of desolation: and the desolation shall continue even to the consummation, and to the end. Daniel 12 provides a timeline related to the "continual sacrifice": 5 And I Daniel looked, and behold as it were two others stood: one on this side upon the bank of the river, and another on that side, on the other bank of the river. 6 And I said to the man that was clothed In linen, that stood upon the waters of the river: How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? 7 And I heard the man that was clothed in linen, that stood upon the waters of the river: when he had lifted up his right hand, and his left hand to heaven, and had sworn, by him that liveth for ever, that it should be unto a time, and times, and half a time. And when the scattering of the band of the holy people shall be accomplished, all these things shall be finished. 8 And I heard, and understood not. And I said: O my lord, what shall be after these things? 9 And he said: Go, Daniel, because the words are shut up, and sealed until the appointed time. 10 Many shall be chosen, and made white, and shall be tried as fire: and the wicked shall deal wickedly, and none of the wicked shall understand, but the learned shall understand. 11 And from the time when the continual sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination unto desolation shall be set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred ninety days, 12 Blessed is he that waiteth and cometh unto a thousand three hundred thirty-five days. 13 But go thou thy ways until the time appointed: and thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot unto the end of the days. So, according to the Church Fathers and St. Robert Bellarmine, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass will be taken away by the Antichrist. In St. Robert Bellarmine's time (1500s AD), the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass was what we now call the Tridentine Mass, or the Traditional Latin Mass. It is, presumably, this same Holy Sacrifice of the Mass that will be taken away according to the Garabandal seers right before the Warning, no?
We've recently discussed this aspect of Daniel.. In a manner of thinking, Jesus', etc of the New Testament.. draws upon much of the Old Testament - including Daniel - and it is New Testament Prophecies concerning AntiChrist - which expound most/best upon the AntiChrist Compared with the over 2000 Bishops at Vatican II who conversed in Latin at meetings? Latin speakers amongst the hierarchy barely exist. Latin is the Liturgical language of the Latin/Roman Rite.. but not of all (24) Catholic Rites. Most Tridentine Masses have already been eliminated. And July 2021 - Pope Francis Restricts Use of Old Latin Mass The pope placed new restrictions on where the old Latin Mass can be celebrated and who can celebrate it, and will require new permissions from local bishops. When the AntiChrist takes his seat in a temple he shall soon murder as many Christians as he's able to.. +
I think that the first item could lead to the return of literal communism that would trigger a persecution against the Church such as is happening in Nicaragua under the command of communist dictator Daniel Ortega, I even think that if the scenario of the Chilean revolution of 2019 occur across Europe (with churches vandalized and burned down) governments will have an excuse to close our churches again for "security reasons".
although few would agree... Communism has left Russia and moved into the West and the visible Catholic Church The Holy Mass has already been almost completely eradicated The Great Apostasy began roughly 50 years ago.. The Church has been under various forms of persecution for years - decades - centuries - for 2000 years! When the AntiChrist takes his seat in a temple he shall soon murder as many Christians as he's able to..
Probably that will happen, that is, that secular "communism" will become more common. But that is not "the worst thing." The "worst thing" is when the Church of Jesus Christ is infiltrated by communists, and they make it difficult to practice the true faith and set up a Counterfeit Church that looks very similar to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, which they use to deceive the Elect and draw them away from Christ by using a false teaching of Christ. The teaching of humanitarianism and wokeism. The Ven. Fulton Sheen describes what the leader of this Counterfeit Church will look like and how to recognize him. Please listen, especially starting at timestamp 5:05.
This has already been occurring at a visible level for 50 years... The Holy Mass has already been almost completely eradicated The Church has been under various forms of persecution for years - decades - centuries - for 2000 years! When the AntiChrist takes his seat in a temple he shall soon murder as many Christians as he's able to..
I think the abomination of desolation is when the Antichrist goes to Rome and the False Prophet changes the words of consecration. Daniel said the abomination of desolation will last for 3 1/2 years. The best candidate for the AC, imo, is M**treya.
+ What needs be more expounded upon (by me) is the pile of info known about the very nature of and solid info disseminated re: the Planned Temple in Jerusalem... And Yes The heads of the Catholic Church have been in the process of being drawn by/to the very spirit of the AntiChrist... As are some so-called Christian sects.. The current leadership of the visible Catholic Church have been going along the behavioral path of the disobedient Jewish leadership of the days when Jesus walked the earth Lately, for reasons not as yet expounded upon, I'm thinking. that a pope shall be the False Prophet. This Pope? Next Pope? I'd think next maybe. Underneath it all is as the UnHoly Trinity - Satan, AntiChrist, False Prophet. == Who'll fool many - even the Elect For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. This is what the Lord says— your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: “I am the Lord your God, who teaches you what is best for you, who directs you in the way you should go." POINT? Our Primary Source for Guidance to Salvation? Is JESUS! ... HIMSELF! .. Allow Jesus to be your Teacher/Guide/Rabbi! From God's Prophesy - Revelations13: 11 Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon. 12 It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13 And it performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people. 14 Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name. 18 This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. That number is 666. +
Only problem with this interpretation is the Latin mass was also abolished by Paul VI. So I'd that's the only condition, that condition existed long before our current time. Certainly I agree the TLM restrictions are the beginning, but I believe it must get much worse, it must be the complete abolition of the mass. Like it or not the novus ordo is a valid authentic Mass. When all masses are abolished then you'll know that the warning is imminent.
yes.. . It's been getting worse for decades. The most likely scoundrel currently behind it all are agents of AntiChrist - whom when he arrives - shall demand to be worshipped as God.
Hi EricH. Paul VI did not abolish ("abrogate") the Latin mass in any official manner. See Summorum Pontificum: It is therefore permitted to celebrate the Sacrifice of the Mass following the typical edition of the Roman Missal, which was promulgated by Blessed John XXIII in 1962 and never abrogated, as an extraordinary form of the Church’s Liturgy. The conditions for the use of this Missal laid down by the previous documents Quattuor Abhinc Annos and Ecclesia Dei are now replaced as follows: However, what we are seeing from the current occupier of the Roman See is an official, doctrinal program that, when completed, will abrogate the traditional Mass. The justification for this has already been stated officially and doctrinally, because only the Novus Ordo is the "unique expression" of the Roman Rite according to Traditionis Custodes, Art. 1. Having said that, you could be correct that some form of the Novus Ordo might be still a valid Sacrifice. But I doubt it, and I personally will never attend a doubtful Mass again. In Canon Law of 1983 the phrase "the Sacrifice of the Mass" was replaced with the phrase "Eucharistic Celebration," and the visible change from an Altar to a Supper Table gives a pretty good indication of the difference in the sense of lex orandi, lex credendi. But, who knows the mind of God? Maybe a priest saying the Novus Ordo with Eucharistic Prayer 1, in the official Vatican Latin version (not a corrupted vernacular translation), ad orientem, and at a traditional Altar would be fine in God's eyes. I still doubt it because of various unnecessary changes to essential prayers of the Mass, especially the Offertory prayers and the prayer surrounding the Consecration of the Precious Blood. Read the document De defectibus, which was promulgated by St. Pope Pius V and included in every pre-Novus Ordo altar missal. You can see there what the Church said would "invalidate" the Mass. I definitely do not think we will see "a complete abolition of the Mass." It should either be 1) abolition of the traditional Latin Mass alone, or 2) the abolition of the traditional Latin Mass ALONG WITH a further corruption of the Novus Ordo that clearly invalidates it. I'm not sure at this point. But, as I said, I think option 1 is looking more likely. And I believe, it will be soon after the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is "taken away" that the Warning will happen. That is why all of this is relevant to Garabandal.
Agree. It’s going to get worse. Even Fr Blount has had a vision of three blackouts that will affect us all. PNF has done a very thorough job on telling us it’s about the Catholic Church, the NEW ISRAEL.
Then you are saying that the mass that is said in garabandal itself is invalid because garabandal uses the novus ordo. And my understanding is All The visionaries of garabandal also attend novus ordo masses. As did Saint mother teresa. And John Paul II the great. There are a ton of abuses that take place in the novus ordo. But to believe that it is an invalid Mass is completely wrong.
So as I understand it (and we can disagree obviously) there are two senses in which the word "invalidity" can be used with regard to the Mass. 1. The invalidity of the confection of the Sacrament 2. The invalidity of the Rite of the Mass as a true Propitiatory Sacrifice Regarding #1, I believe it is clear that the consecration of the Body of Christ is completely valid in the Novus Ordo. I can't think of any reason to doubt that. With regard to the consecration of the Precious Blood, there CAN BE doubt, in my opinion. I base this not on my own personal thoughts, but on the words of De defectibus itself. The words of the consecration of the Precious Blood have been changed. That is a fact. The words "mysterium fidei" have been moved out of context. Is that enough to make the confection of the Precious Blood invalid? I do not know, but I, personally, don't want to take the chance. A bigger problem, I think, is with the vernacular translation of the consecration of the Precious Blood. De defectibus makes it very clear that if the meaning of the words are changed in "the form" of the consecration, then no confection takes place. Well, I don't see how "for all" and "for many" can have the same meaning. In the USA, thankfully these words have been corrected as of 2011. But in many continental European countries the words "for all" (in the local tongue) is currently in use. So, if the meaning of those essential words of "the form" has changed, then, for me, a "positive doubt" is introduced. Again, I'm just reporting what the document promulgated by Pope St. Pius V says. Please read it for yourself and form your own conclusions. And I don't deny that God can give graces as He chooses to souls properly disposed. I say what I have said because it is what I believe. I admit that am fallible. And it is clear from De defectibus that the consecration of the Body and the consecration of the Blood are two separate consecrations. The invalidation of one does not invalidate the other. Regarding #2, the Rite of the Mass is itself a vehicle of grace, outside of the Sacramental graces (and vice versa). So when I assist at Mass but do not receive the Sacrament, I can still receive graces, if I'm properly disposed. To me it is beyond doubt that the Novus Ordo Rite is not intended by its creators to be a "propitiatory sacrifice." All of the propitiatory language has been removed from the prayers, except in the case of EP1. When the word "sacrifice" is mentioned it is either ambiguous or it directly refers to a "sacrifice of praise," which is different from a "propitiatory sacrifice" that remits sins. The Novus Ordo Offertory prayers should be compared to the TLM Offertory prayers to understand what is being "offered" to God in each Rite. The NO is offering "the fruit of the earth, the work of human hands." The TLM is offering "the immaculate Host" (aka Jesus). The former is similar to the offering of Cain. The latter to the offering of Abel. The TLM places us at the foot of the Cross on Calvary. The Novus Ordo places us around a table at the Last Supper. These are very different theologically. In the former, we are weeping at the Cross with Our Blessed Mother. In the latter, we are celebrating and sharing a meal with our brothers and sisters. The Rite of the Novus Ordo is something different from the Rite expressed in the TLM. And the current occupier of the Roman See has been explicit that the TLM expresses a different, out-dated liturgical theology. I think he's correct that the Rites are fundamentally different. But he likes the Novus Ordo meal sharing paradigm. And I think that only the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass (the eternal Calvary) is the true Mass. I think the documentary Mass of the Ages II explains the problematic origins of the Novus Ordo Rite pretty well. See that movie if you have not already. Now moving on from "invalidity" to other "defects." I think the worship of God should always be as perfect as we can achieve. If we can attend a form of worship more "perfect," then we should. We should not accept less than the best possible when it comes to worshipping God. We are "adoring" Him for His Sacrifice for our sins. So it makes sense for that "propitiatory sacrifice" would be front and center in the Mass. I believe the TLM is the most "perfect" expression of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass available to Catholics, and I think we should attend it whenever possible.
