Hi Padraig, on Jan. 10th, you wrote this in another thread, Five bishops do not an infallible doctrine make, but it's a start . Now, what made you say that on January 10th? Just a hunch or something else? Inquiring minds want to know.
Deanna, before the Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was declared many great Catholic saints and theologians opposed it. After it was Declared it recieved the seal of Heaven in the Great Marian Apparitions at Lourdes. Similiarly after the first Dogma , that Mary was the Mother of God was declared by the Church at the Council of Ephesus in the year 431 (Lk 1:31-35, Lk 1:43, Mt 1:21). great miracles were reported in Ephesus as a seal from heaven.This also undermined heresy, Nestorianism and the heresy that said Christ never worked miracles. After the last MArian Dogma's are confirmed there will, I believe be the greatest Sign from heaven of all. Again and again from apparitions we see that heaven asks this. But there is a slothfulness from within the Church, a lack of openness to the Spirit that undermines it , just as at Ephesus the Nestorians undermined the supernatural, too. The path to accepting the last Dogma's is not through the mind, but through the heart, through prayer and Devotion to the Blessed Virgin. Only so can the door of our hearts be open to the truth. We need to become very,very little so that God {in our hearts} can become very great. The Bishops are good at using their brains, but they need to be humbled so that they can open their hearts. It was the exact same thing at Fatima when Mary asked for the Consecration of the World to the Immaculate Heart. How slow they were to act, how slothful and indifferent!! After the proclamation of the Dogma's there will more and more be seen a separation from the sheep and the goats and there will be a great return to the Church and faith within the Church.The power of Satan will be severely undercut. The very opposite of what the enemies of the dogma claim. This isn't one Dogma, though, but three- in- one. However it will not be this Pope who declares it. Nor, I suspect, the one following. Much work, much prayer and fasting is needed to move men's hearts.To make them children again.
Hi Padraig, I think you're right, the official infallible declaration is a ways away. My understanding of this kind of terminology is rather poor, so I want to elaborate. In my view, through the ages, the Church has always taught that Mary works alongside us as we work out our redemption in fear and trembling. She may not have always carried the specific co-Redemptrix title, but it seems as if the Church has always referred to her in such a manner within the commonly recognized infallibly proclaimed Marian dogmas, which are (for my benefit): 1) Mary is the Mother of God 2) Mary was Ever Virgin 3) Mary was immaculately conceived 4) The Assumption--Mary was assumed into heaven body and soul. I think that covers all the official proclamations. Correct me if I missed something. But, you're thinking the Advocate, Co-remptrix, and Mediatrix will be proclaimed doctrines 5, 6 & 7? Just checking . Of course, as Catholics we understand that as although certain doctrines are not officially and publically proclaimed as being infallible dogma, they are unerring truth anyway. Whether or not these titles are ever included within the 4 official proclamations, I think that Mary is all these things. But, there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about what these titles convey. The bishops and everyone involved in defining and teaching these things, need to get together and come to an agreement on the ramifications of these titles, then explain what these entail to the faithful. It seems like there is a lot of confusion among the laity right now and IMO, this stems from lack of strong, proper leadership. Many Christians (Catholics and Protestants alike) see the pre-fix "co-" and have coronaries over it, thinking that it somehow puts Mary on equal footing with Christ. When I first ran across the title Co-Redemptrix, I said, Whoa! I sure hope that doesn't mean what it sounds like it means. Has the Church lost it's mind? But, I suspended judgment and realized that the Church hadn't gone off the deepend. The misunderstanding was on my end. Still, I understand how so many people are taking away the wrong meaning from it. I hope the church makes an effort to educate everyone about the co-redemptrix term especially, before they throw it out to the masses like a meaty bone to a pack of wild dogs. Anyway . . . When Jesus offered the Sacrifice of Himself for our redemption, Mary stood at the foot of His cross, where He gave us to her as her children, and He gave her to us as our Mother. Mary was drawn into the culimating act of redemption (not sure if I said that right), while He hung on the cross. Clearly, He wills her to be a part of our redemption, so bestowing a title upon her that shows her as a participant in our redemption is fitting, IMO. I don't know if I said everything correctly, but hopefully I've conveyed what I wanted to. I'm kind of dreading the idea of it being officially declared, because I can see all the attacks it will generate on the Church and on Mary herself. But, that kind of thinking is from the evil one . . . or just me being a coward . As difficult as it is, Catholics should not and must not concede to the standards of the world. The Church is obligated to stand for the Truth, no matter what the consequences. Peace.
Rain, We're not theologians here; I think you expressed yourself quite well. As I understand it, the prefix, co-, in Latin simply means, with. The Church clearly teaches that Christ is the sole Redeemer and Mediator and that his suffering and death are infinitely meritorious. Those who question this privilege of Mary argue that it implies that Christ's death was insufficient. Not so! This privilege only recognizes that the Father willed Mary to be uniquely united to her Son's Passion. Even Paul teaches that each of us are effective instruments in redemptive suffering: Col 1:24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is the Church. Here's how I understand it: Christ's sufferings- infinitely meritorious, once and for all, the source of all grace. The sufferings of his Body (us)- united to Christ, each of us offers up our sufferings for the sake of others in our time. Such acts are limited in their merit. Since Mary was pure and undefiled, then her redemptive sufferings are uniquely meritorious among the saints. It's what Lent is all about: To the Glory of God!
I think when you look at the life of Jesus folks were always getting annoyed and walking away. When He instituted the Eucharist thay fled, when He talked about the rich, when He talked about doing away with divorce, when He died on the Cross.... Also of course when the Church Instituted Dogmas on Papal Infallibility and the Assumption of Mary, it was the same story. I am not a theologian either, so I know I have to be careful, I only understand these things through prayer. I think you are both right the key sticking point is over the title 'Co-redemptrix. Well I was praying about this a few months ago and the Holy Spirit showed me the painting in the Sistine Chapel. You might recall the section of the ceiling were God reaches out and touches Adams finger , giving him life. It is very famous. Well anyway it was explained to me like this: In Gods creating Adam, God was reaching down to man. Now, similiarly in sending Jesus to Earth , this was God again reaching down to Earth to free us from our sins. Now God loves man so much that He wanted to enable us to do something on our own behalf. SO He gave us Mary so that Mary could in a sense be a GOOD RESPONSE BY ALL MANKIND. Or if you like in another way something we could could hold onto, that at least if the rest of us made a mess of it, at least one of us could rise up and share fully in the Redemptive work. SO it was shown like the picture in the Sistine Chapel God reaching down to give life to mankind, but in this case I saw Mary reaching up to touch the hand of God...so that it wasn't JUST GOD REACHING DOWN it was mankind, through Mary reaching back up. You may recall the words of the famous Italian poet, Dante Allighiere in reference to Mary: 'Our poor tainted nature's solitary boast!!!' Does this make any sense??? Anyway it stuck in my mind and really made me happy.
Also it came to my heart this morning that these three in one Dogmas relate to the Holy Trinity...so, Matriatrix, The Holy Spirit...Advocate......Jesus Christ...and Co-Redemptrix , God the Father. So, anyway, it was shown to me that in this way each person in the Blessed Trinity wish to honour and 'Crown' Mary with this three-in-one Dogma{s}. It is really very beautiful, I have begun to Meditate on it and it is a great mystery...I believe one day this will be included as the greatest mysterry of the Holy Rosary by a future Pope. Again I am sorry if this seems silly, it just came to me in prayer!!
